From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Nov 30 15:50:27 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fAUMoRU00265 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:50:27 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4130.cisnet.com [207.17.248.130]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:50:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3C080D79.70015C06@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:51:37 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Up and running! Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This list uses the idcomm address because sendmail is not configured to accept mail for atmsite.org at the moment. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From mayen1@mwt.net Sun Dec 2 16:42:18 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB2NgHU04738 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:42:17 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-1-109.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.109]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB2NgAr00778 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:42:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C0ABC95.96288239@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:43:17 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] THANKS!!! Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Thanks soooo very much for starting this. I don't know what it is, but I have downloaded many ray tracing programs and never have figured out how to use any of them. geez!! Thanks Joe From crawford@goingware.com Sun Dec 2 17:08:52 2001 Received: from dolomite.mint.net (dolomite.mint.net [216.227.128.33]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB308oU04813 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:08:50 -0700 Received: from goingware.com (me-rockland-dial-278.mint.adelphia.net [216.227.146.106]) by dolomite.mint.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12762 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:08:40 -0500 Message-ID: <3C0AC441.1080109@goingware.com> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:16:01 -0500 From: "Michael D. Crawford" Organization: GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Greetings from Mike Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, I just joined this list after seeing the announcement on the ATM list. I thought I might have something useful to contribute. I have a long history of _attempting_ to raytrace, without a lot of success. I used to use the procedures I found in Amateur Telescope Making, only with a hand calculator instead of trig tables and an adding machine. Some of my earliest attempts at computer programming were trying to write raytracing programs in either FORTRAN or C. I wasn't a good enough programmer back then to do it, but I am now - I've been programming as a career for over 14 years. I downloaded OSLO LT recently and plan to use it to study the design for my 8" ritchey-chretien, but haven't messed with it yet. But I'm thinking, over a long period of time, of writing an optical design program that would be Free Software in the sense that the Free Software Foundation puts it - it would be licensed under the GNU General Public License, and so would come with source code. I think it's great that OSLO LT is provided as freeware but I think it would be better if people had a powerful tool that they also possessed the source to, with the right to make and redistribute modifications. So I don't want to just know how raytracing is done working with existing programs, I'm interested in understanding how these programs work internally, the algorithms and data structures used, what would be the requirements for a really useful tool and so on. Also any program I would write would be cross-platform, probably using the ZooLib cross-platform application framework (http://zoolib.sourceforge.net/) so you could run it on any OS you like. I have a web page about my telescope making at http://www.geometricvisions.com/atm/ When I started college I majored in astronomy at CalTech. I later changed my major to Physics and transferred to the University of California at Santa Cruz, where I successfully petitioned for credit in UCSC's optics course because of my experience making telescopes as a teenager. Mike -- Michael D. Crawford GoingWare Inc. - Expert Software Development and Consulting http://www.goingware.com crawford@goingware.com Tilting at Windmills for a Better Tomorrow. "I give you this one rule of conduct. Do what you will, but speak out always. Be shunned, be hated, be ridiculed, be scared, be in doubt, but don't be gagged." -- John J. Chapman, "Make a Bonfire of Your Reputations" http://www.goingware.com/reputation/ From bolenb@pacbell.net Sun Dec 2 17:37:19 2001 Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB30bJU04885 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:37:19 -0700 Received: from jgoins ([206.170.4.75]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GNQ00IETSE061@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:37:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 16:37:43 -0800 From: Joseph Goins To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Reply-to: Joseph Goins Message-id: <001401c17b92$b8ed84e0$4b04aace@jgoins> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's a first one for the archives. What software is recommended for = raytracing? Joseph B. Goins 1091 Harness Circle #1 San Ramon, CA 94583 (925) 277-1351 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here's a first one for the = archives.  What=20 software is recommended for raytracing?
 
Joseph B. Goins
1091 Harness Circle = #1
San=20 Ramon, CA 94583
(925) 277-1351
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C17B4F.AA3C5CC0-- From klowther@cisnet.com Sun Dec 2 18:27:31 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB31RVU05007 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:27:31 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with SMTP id ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:27:24 -0500 Message-ID: <132902001121312724891@cisnet.com> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 4 X-EM-Registration: #00D0530210911E009A00 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Vop Mail Web Version 1.2(8) X-IP-Address: 204.179.144.227 From: klowther@cisnet.com To: bolenb@pacbell.net, raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:27:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John is workikng on some preliminary information and was waiting to give people a chance to sign up before getting started. OSLO will probably be the software of choice. There is a free download version that does more than us amatures are going to need. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Goins Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:37:43 PM To: Subject: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? > Here's a first one for the archives. What software is recommended for raytracing? > > Joseph B. Goins > 1091 Harness Circle #1 > San Ramon, CA 94583 > (925) 277-1351 From klowther@cisnet.com Sun Dec 2 18:32:10 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB31WAU05029 for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:32:10 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with SMTP id ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:32:03 -0500 Message-ID: <5303200112131323912@cisnet.com> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 4 X-EM-Registration: #00D0530210911E009A00 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Vop Mail Web Version 1.2(8) X-IP-Address: 204.179.144.227 From: klowther@cisnet.com To: crawford@goingware.com, Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Greetings from Mike Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:32:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: All 'good stuff' but we just announced the list and we hope you will have to repeat this in a few days because others will have joined. ;-) Some people do their email from work or don't check it as often as others. So everyone, hold on a bit. Give others a chance to join before we get into the heart of the issue. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael D. Crawford Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:16:01 PM To: Subject: [Raytrace] Greetings from Mike From jd-upton@texas.net Mon Dec 3 10:50:04 2001 Received: from mg01.austin.ibm.com (mg01.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.18]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB3Ho3U06543 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:50:04 -0700 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.137]) by mg01.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15212; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:50:46 -0600 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30086; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:49:53 -0600 Received: from UPTON.texas.net (upton.austin.ibm.com [9.53.68.105]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id LAA04016; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:49:51 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20011203074836.00c42d70@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:50:14 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where do you get the software for Raytracing? Cc: Joseph Goins In-Reply-To: <001401c17b92$b8ed84e0$4b04aace@jgoins> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Joseph, At 04:37 PM 12/2/01 -0800, Joseph Goins wrote: >Here's a first one for the archives. What software is recommended for >raytracing? That is an excellent starter question for the list. It gives us a chance to list some of the ray trace resources that are available to ATMs. All the programs listed below are available free of charge. Several are scaled back (limited) versions of professional optical design and evaluation programs. The "big brothers" of these programs can cost thousands of dollars (US). The companies that produce them have made these free versions available to amateurs and students like us. There are a number of other low cost and free ray tracing programs available. Most will do basic ray tracing and spot diagram generation. I do not mean to slight the usefulness of those programs by not listing them here. This list simply consists of the "heavy duty" programs that I have at least heard something about. For this mail list to achieve its goal of sharing knowledge of these programs, we need folks who have used them to actively participate. I have played with OSLO-LT, but have only scratched the surface of what it can do. I expect to learn as much as anyone else on this list. Our goal is to generate a set of tutorials and FAQ concerning how to use ray tracing programs to answer the types of questions that come up on the ATM list from time to time. The ray tracing FAQ will ultimately reside on the ATM_Site web site. I wrote up one such tutorial for my web site last year. Hopefully, this list will inspire other step-by-step tutorials to be written for the ATM_Site. So feel free to ask questions about how to do some specific tasks in these ray tracing programs and we will see if the group can figure out how to do it. We will all learn something in the process and common questions and procedures will go into the FAQ for future use. Here is the list of free programs. I have included the known limitations of each as best I know them. The links will take you to the respective companies' web sites where you can download the program. OSLO-LT (Limited to 10 surfaces) http://www.sinopt.com/ ZEMAX (Demo only -- Cannot save?? How is it limited??) http://www.focus-software.com/demo_z.html MODAS (Limited to 4 surfaces) http://ivankra.tripod.com/modas.html ATMOS (Limited to 3 surfaces) http://web.tiscali.it/ATMOS/ SYNOPSYS (Full featured for 90 days -- Limited to 12 surfaces thereafter) http://home.gwi.net/OSD/home.htm Roadrunner LT (Limited to 12 surfaces) http://www.acmeoptics.com/ John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From klowther@cisnet.com Mon Dec 3 14:35:35 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB3LZZU06933 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:35:35 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4145.cisnet.com [207.17.248.145]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:35:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3C0BF062.EF22A6A5@cisnet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:36:34 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] membership level Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: We have been slowly increasing in number. Up to 22, less than 24 hours after anouncing. We have decided to keep the membership list hidden, even to members, for a little added security. I believe the mailer program gives individual the right to hide their email on that list any how. The archives are public however and do show email addresses. If there is much concern, we can close the archives to the public, though I hate to do that. I get email addresses from the ATM archive from time to time. ;-) My provider has good spam filters in place and I hardly ever get spammed, so it doesn't bother me. I have posted to the ATM list hundreds of times. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From trickar1@san.rr.com Mon Dec 3 22:41:59 2001 Received: from smtp2.san.rr.com (smtp2.san.rr.com [24.25.195.39]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB45fxU07724 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:41:59 -0700 Received: from zxc (66-27-59-56.san.rr.com [66.27.59.56]) by smtp2.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fB45fnm15870 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:41:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <012b01c17c85$776e5aa0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> From: "Tim Rickard" To: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:35:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [Raytrace] new member Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hello. Thanks Ken for setting up this list. I look forward to contributing what I can, though mostly I'll be learning from others for now. cheers, Tim From bolenb@pacbell.net Tue Dec 4 11:04:34 2001 Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB4I4YU08813 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:04:34 -0700 Received: from jgoins ([206.170.4.208]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GNT00D5XZJBI9@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:04:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:05:05 -0800 From: Joseph Goins To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Reply-to: Joseph Goins Message-id: <003f01c17cee$347f4060$f104aace@jgoins> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <012b01c17c85$776e5aa0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> Subject: [Raytrace] Virus in Email Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Mr. Smith's emails contain virus's. Be careful. Don't open them. Joe From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Wed Dec 5 13:43:41 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB5KheU11089 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:43:40 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17352 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:43:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011205143623.00ad1b50@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:05:14 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Hi everybody Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi folks: Just signed up on this list to see what is going on. Apparently not much activity as yet. So I thought I'd introduce myself and my area of interest. I work on the development of lightweight mirrors. The details are in a web site which unfortunately is not publicly accessible at the moment due to NASA concerns about security. The web site is in the process of being relocated to another address where the world can access it. My interest is to design new telescopes around the lightweight mirrors. Hence ray tracing. I have done a fair amount of work using Beam3, Beam4, and TDesign (Rutten and van Venrooij). I have played around with OSLO LT, I also have a copy of the latest MODAS and Zemax 10.0. I'm still learning to use those. Most of the mirrors we have produced so far are spherical, although we just made our first parabola a short while ago. My current interest is therefore to check out existing published designs of spherical mirror telescopes (mostly from S&T) and see which ones are the most cost-effective to build. By cost-effective I mean the least number of optical components (lenses, secondary and tertiary mirrors, etc), components that are easy to make, and where the tolerancing is not too exact. Not having had any formal education in optical design, I'm sort of feeling my way around. I look forward to hearing what other members of this group are engaged in. Regards, P.C. Chen From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 17:41:32 2001 Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB70fWU13352 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:41:32 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet30-020.austin.texas.net [209.99.102.20]) by mw2.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB70f5E15380 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:41:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206181249.00b20570@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:17:58 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Raytrace List Origins (Long) Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List Members, Welcome. As background material, I am posting excerpts from some of the off-line email conversations that lead to the generation of this list. My cuts of non-pertinent material are denoted by "[snip]". Ken Lowther was the driving force behind getting the list started. I didn't find out about being appointed list administrator until after the list was created. Thanks Ken. (...I think...) To repay the honor(?), my first duty was to make Ken alternate administrator. :^) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = At 12:55 PM 11/27/01 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote on the ATM List: >Please consider 'donating' your spec files to the atm site so that others >can use them for reference. Having these files could be a useful starting >point for some of us that are less adept at these programs. At 07:57 AM 11/28/01 -0600, John D. Upton wrote off-list: > I don't mind sending you the OSLO file I used, but I don't think it > would be of use to anyone. There are already several OSLO and ZEMAX > files on the ATM Site. They represent unusual or sometimes "complex" > designs that may be of use to others. A file describing a single > paraboloidal mirror for a Newtonian seems of little use to me. > > What *is* needed is a set of tutorials for each of OSLO, ZEMAX and > MODAS that explain how folks can get the information that was discussed > in this thread on the ATM List. The useful data is not in the file -- it > is in which buttons you push (and commands you use) to try to get some > insight into the problem at hand. [snip] At 05:15 PM 11/28/01 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote off-list: >[snip] When W=B put out the book on lens design with computers I bought it >and downloaded OSLO. It was a very frustrating experience. I put a lot >of time into it with very little in the way of results. Maybe start with >the Newtonian and see how it goes? If you want to collaborate I can set >up a quick email group. I'm sure we could get a few people from the list >to offer input. [snip] At 04:56 PM 11/29/01 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote off-list: >I could set up a list and see who is interested in learning a little OSLO >and seeing if we could turn the most common questions and problems into a >FAQ or tutorial. If it works fine. If there isn't enough interest, you >have saved yourself a lot of work. ;-) At 06:32 PM 11/29/01 +1000, Peter John Smith wrote off-list: >I have found the level of help provided with Raytracing software as >pathetic and I fully relate to Ken's comments. > >This includes Zemax. [snip] The instructions do tersely cover features >but one needs much more because one needs to understand how to use the >program before the terse comments make any sense............ > >I eventually taught myself to use Zemax (well - a useful portion of its >features. Doubt anyone could understand all) by using some demo files >which came with it and a real menagerie of mainly old optics books. [snip] > >In my opinion you need > >1/ example files of a large range of types of optical instruments. This >is especially true when the ray path inverts and rays pass some surfaces >more than once. > >2/ some optical background. Preferably a lot. But the ironic thing is >that a lot of good work can be done with a good modern optimising >raytracer with limited optics theory. > >3/ more specific info on the ways modern raytracers have >developed. There is almost a set of jargon relating to them. It is not >in the books to my knowledge and is probably best overcome by good tutorials. > >I found the most useful technique to work outwards from example >files. Then substitute other specs for other example designs available to >me by modifying these files. The two best books for this I had which gave >enough examples and some assessment of them were 'Telescope Optics - >Evaluation and Design' by Rutten and VenRooij and Warren J Smith's >'Modern Lens Design - A Resource Manual'. Also published designs in S&T >over the years often gave some assessment as well as specs and were >generally correct. Smith's book is mainly a collection of Patent Specs >and some others. It is not on modern design methods. But it includes >examples of most types of optics designs WITH A SHORT RUNDOWN ON THEIR >ASSESSMENT which is really valuable. There is also an introduction to the >book which matched a lot of what I wanted to know. It is not aimed at any >one raytracer which is a both a limitation and a strength. Being general >sounds like a good idea but it is amazing how slight variations in the way >each raytracer presents and accepts info is such a block to a newcomer. > >The least useful books were on raytracing theory. > >One real trap was that many designs I had collected were simply wrong or >afflicted with typos. When one has no confidence to recognize this it has >a huge negative impact. You would be amazed at how many prescriptions are >bandied around that are simply wrong. > >Unfortunately I cannot see a way to solve this problem easily because - > >1/ Most top line raytracers with a nice user interface with any >reputation are expensive and need a dongle to run. Thus there is little >point in their files being made readily available. Vary few 'free' >programs include optimisation in a simple enough interface for it to be >useable. With all of its limitations, OSLO still stands out here as being >useful. [snip] > >2/ Files for one program are not readily available to to others. Despite >the fact that some will 'import' others files, I have found this of very >limited use. As raytracers grow in sophistication features are added. >Unless everyones import features are all updated these now become >unreadable to many other programs. This is the reason I have not placed >more files in the ATM space. I have had many requests from people for >help because they could not import my files and have lately taken more >to ------.txt files of prescriptions for intercommunication. This is >pathetic but it always works. Of course the recipient must have enough >experience to use them. One product I think should be more well known is >OPTIX which will translate raytracing file formats reasonably. The writer >has a good simple product and seems to intend extending the freeware LT >version to a fully optimising program which will then cost a significant >amount. It is a little like a Zemax lookalike. But, realistically, is >there room for another professional raytrace on the market. At the moment >the LT version is useful as a file viewer with some assessment capability >but unless kept up to date as other programs evolve will lose its usefulness. > >At one time I thought of placing files for every design on my web site in >the ATM space and am willing to do this (partly done) but is it >worthwhile in Zemax format ? . Every one of my web articles contains a >txt prescription. > >[snip] > >As a matter of interest, on the Zemax web site there are many files for >download. > >To download go to: http://www.focus-software.com/file_exchange/ > >Many of these are of weird setups - things that would take you ages to >figure out how to set up in the lens editor. In fact, some are people >showing off their expertise I think. But many could be the basis for >other work. One set of these files corresponds for all the examples in >Wilson's books on reflective telescope optics. Maybe we should have links >to any sites like this in the ATM space.. > >You can also download a demo version of Zemax which contains many many >useful examples. > >I think a few more 'Tutorials' like that done by John Upton may be useful >but that requires a huge amount of work. [snip] And all this work may >become void with changes in the user interface or file structure of the >raytracing software. > >Articles on any design could include some discussion of evaluation >techniques and the evolution of the design. > >As a matter of interest, I have not started a new Zemax file in years. I >always modify an existing file of something similar. Has its good and bad >points. Is very easy but sometimes contains an obscure artifact that >becomes a problem. But it is a powerful approach which suits my lazy >inclination. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 17:46:49 2001 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB70kmU13405 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 17:46:48 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet30-020.austin.texas.net [209.99.102.20]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB70kRQ14437 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:46:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:46:13 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List, Our membership seems to be pretty stable now at about 35. Let's get going. Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't know exactly what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What do you want to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things common to all ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. For starters, do all programs use the same conventions for data entry? OSLO uses a "spreadsheet" format. If you draw out a design on paper with light starting from the left, the following rules apply. Are these basic rules the same for all other programs we might be interested in using? 1. Each surface encountered by the light is numbered in the order that the incident light transverses it. If the light is reflected back onto a previous surface, it is numbered again, but the parameters can be picked up from the original specification. 2. If light is travelling left to right, distances are positive. If right to left, they are negative. At each reflection, the sign of the directions changes. (For example; if light is going left to right, the sign of distances is positive. If that light is reflected, the next distance is negative. If it is again reflected, the sign changes back to positive.) 3. Each surface has a radius of curvature, aperture, thickness, and media associated with it. Surfaces may also have special data such as conic constant associated with them. The thickness and media are understood to be where the light is entering upon traversing the surface. 4. For a curved surface, if the center of curvature is to the right of the surface, the ROC is a positive number. If the COC is to the left of the surface, the ROC is a negative number. 5. Each surface has a thickness associated with it. The thickness is simply the distance to the next sequential surface. Lenses have a thickness to them, of course. Air spaces are also considered "thicknesses". Are these basic rules the same in all programs? They seem to be consistent with all the optics and ray-tracing texts I have read. What other "rules" might be considered common to most if not all programs? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From wchurchill2nh@hotmail.com Thu Dec 6 19:44:26 2001 Received: from hotmail.com (f10.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB72iQU13586 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:44:26 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:44:05 -0800 Received: from 64.158.27.123 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 02:44:04 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.158.27.123] From: "Wayne Churchill" To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:44:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Dec 2001 02:44:05.0193 (UTC) FILETIME=[0941FB90:01C17EC9] Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi John, Hello List Members, A question concerning surfaces: When considering optically flat reflecting surfaces, how is a change in the angle of the direction of the light cone usually denoted? And thickness: When considering the thickness of a lens, is the on axis thickness of the center of the lens the thickness value used? For those of us who haven't kept up or brushed up on optical terminologies, should we develope a short list of common optical terms and meanings so we're able to communicate effectively? Thankyou, Wayne Churchill >From: "John D. Upton" >To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com >Subject: [Raytrace] Where To Start? >Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 18:46:13 -0600 > >List, > > Our membership seems to be pretty stable now at about 35. Let's get >going. > > Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't know exactly >what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What do you want >to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things common to all >ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. > > For starters, do all programs use the same conventions for data entry? > > OSLO uses a "spreadsheet" format. If you draw out a design on paper >with light starting from the left, the following rules apply. Are these >basic rules the same for all other programs we might be interested in >using? > >1. Each surface encountered by the light is numbered in the order that the >incident light transverses it. If the light is reflected back onto a >previous surface, it is numbered again, but the parameters can be picked up >from the original specification. > >2. If light is travelling left to right, distances are positive. If right >to left, they are negative. At each reflection, the sign of the directions >changes. (For example; if light is going left to right, the sign of >distances is positive. If that light is reflected, the next distance is >negative. If it is again reflected, the sign changes back to positive.) > >3. Each surface has a radius of curvature, aperture, thickness, and media >associated with it. Surfaces may also have special data such as conic >constant associated with them. The thickness and media are understood to >be where the light is entering upon traversing the surface. > >4. For a curved surface, if the center of curvature is to the right of the >surface, the ROC is a positive number. If the COC is to the left of the >surface, the ROC is a negative number. > >5. Each surface has a thickness associated with it. The thickness is >simply the distance to the next sequential surface. Lenses have a >thickness to them, of course. Air spaces are also considered >"thicknesses". > > Are these basic rules the same in all programs? They seem to be >consistent with all the optics and ray-tracing texts I have read. What >other "rules" might be considered common to most if not all programs? > >John D. Upton >Georgetown, TX > "The ATM's Workshop" > "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" > >_______________________________________________ >Raytrace mailing list >Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com >http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 19:50:17 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB72oHU13615 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:50:17 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:50:00 -0500 Message-ID: <3C102EA1.5CB460F4@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:51:13 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? References: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't know exactly > what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What do you want > to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things common to all > ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. For many of us, a simple file to look at in a program might help. Maybe pick a program and look at the file and do simple modifications. A simple lens might be a good starting place. Followed by a reflector. Figuring out how/why to set up the original paramaters isn't intuitive as I recall. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 19:56:55 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB72utU13642 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 19:56:55 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:56:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3C10302B.2CFC6A78@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 21:57:47 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Raytrace List Origins (Long) References: <4.3.1.2.20011206181249.00b20570@mail.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > Ken Lowther was the driving force behind getting the list started. Hey, 5 minutes of my time. In the following messages, it was clear that John really wanted to help bring amatures up a level. I simply did a 5 minute exploit of that. ;-) > I didn't find out about being appointed list administrator until after the > list was created. Thanks Ken. (...I think...) Aren't surprises nice. :) The software allows for multiple admins if things get hectic we could 'saddle' Peter with night shift. Depending on your perspective. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 20:05:28 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB735SU13674 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:05:28 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:05:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3C10322F.F5AD33F2@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:06:23 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Wayne Churchill wrote: > > Hi John, Hello List Members, > A question concerning surfaces: > When considering optically flat reflecting surfaces, how is a change in the > angle of the direction of the light cone usually denoted? > And thickness: > When considering the thickness of a lens, is the on axis thickness of the > center of the lens the thickness value used? > For those of us who haven't kept up or brushed up on optical terminologies, > should we develope a short list of common optical terms and meanings so > we're able to communicate effectively? > Thankyou, > Wayne Churchill > I haven't played with the software for a while now, but I believe you use center thickness on a lens and the software takes care of the curve. When last I used OSLO LT. it did come with a few sample files. Like I said in my last post, even making simple changes to them wasn't intuitive. I would suggest you down load the software and take a look at the sample files. I'm sure there is one in there for a lens. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Thu Dec 6 20:18:25 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB73IPU13713 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:18:25 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:18:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3C103539.44527D5C@cisnet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:19:21 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Archives Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: There were a couple of noteworthy posts early one. Not much in the archives so you may want to check them out. Michael Crawford introduced him self along with his credentials early on. Peter Chen did the same a few days ago. I'd recommend you check out those posts if you weren't on the list yet. Since one of the purposes of this list is to knock out a FAQ/tutorial, any of you that fancy your selves as scribes or are proficient at web content, please keep an eye towards helping with this aspect. John says OSLO maintains a mailing list. No activity as of yet. We may ask them to peek in on us. http://www.atmsite.org/pipermail/raytrace/2001-December/subject.html -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 23:17:49 2001 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB76HjU14006 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:17:49 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet06-14.austin.texas.net [209.99.35.14]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB76HRo03665; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:17:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206233627.00b60f00@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:17:08 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Cc: "Wayne Churchill" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Wayne, At 09:44 PM 12/6/2001 -0500, Wayne Churchill wrote: >A question concerning surfaces: >When considering optically flat reflecting surfaces, how is a change in >the angle of the direction of the light cone usually denoted? If the reflecting surface is on axis, you only need to change the direction by changing the sign. If the reflecting surface is at an angle to the ray direction, you have to set up the surface tilted to the angle. I have only used that mode once and would have to play with OSLO a bit to duplicate the setup. >When considering the thickness of a lens, is the on axis thickness of the >center of the lens the thickness value used? Yes, the center axial thickness of a lens is used. The programs figure out everything else. >For those of us who haven't kept up or brushed up on optical >terminologies, should we develope a short list of common optical terms and >meanings so we're able to communicate effectively? Yes, a great suggestion. Do we have a volunteer to put together the Ray-Tracer dictionary? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Dec 6 23:18:20 2001 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB76IEU14028 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:18:15 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet06-14.austin.texas.net [209.99.35.14]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB76Hto03726 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 00:17:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011206234317.00b55290@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 00:13:17 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? In-Reply-To: <3C102EA1.5CB460F4@cisnet.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Ken, At 09:51 PM 12/6/2001 -0500, Ken Lowther wrote: >For many of us, a simple file to look at in a program might help. Maybe >pick a program and look at the file and do simple modifications. A >simple lens might be a good starting place. Followed by a reflector. Perhaps a couple of text prescriptions from OSLO will help illustrate the (typical?) data entry formats. This is the text printout of an OSLO design for a simple double convex lens made of Schott BK7 glass. *LENS DATA Simple Double Convex Lens SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST 10.000000 0.250000 1.000000 AS BK7 C 2 -20.000000 12.826432 S 0.991482 S AIR IMS -- -- 1.2937e-05 S The lines labeled AST and 2 describe the lens. (The AST just means that the aperture stop for the lens is at the first surface.) Remember that it takes two lines (surfaces) to fully describe a lens. The left side has a ROC of 10.0" and the right side 20.0" Note that the right side's curvature is negative since it is convex and the COC must be to the left of the surface. The thickness of the lens is shown on the AST line. It is 0.25" thick. The thickness shown on line 2 is the "thickness of the air between the right surface of the lens and the image plane -- in other words the focal length is 12.826". Now, here is an example for a concave spherical mirror with a ROC of 30". *LENS DATA Simple Spherical Mirror SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST -30.000000 -15.000000 S 3.000000 AS REFL_HATCH IMS -- -- 1.5000e-05 S In this case, the AST line shows the mirror. The ROC is negative since the COC is to the left of the mirror's surface. The thickness is again the focal length or the thickness of air between the mirror's surface and the image plane. The focal length is negative because the light has reflected off the mirror and is now travelling right to left. Do these two examples help illustrate the rules or conventions in the previous note? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From aboskov@pop.wiredcity.com.au Fri Dec 7 07:26:45 2001 Received: from mail.wiredcity.com.au (mail.wiredcity.com.au [203.161.127.131]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id fB7EQiU14688 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:26:44 -0700 Received: (qmail 14493 invoked by uid 505); 7 Dec 2001 22:26:20 +0800 Received: from srs9-113-159.wire.wiredcity.com.au (HELO laptop.pop.wiredcity.com.au) (203.161.113.159) by mail.wiredcity.com.au with SMTP; 7 Dec 2001 22:26:19 +0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011207221800.009d1a50@pop.wiredcity.com.au> X-Sender: aboskov@pop.wiredcity.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 22:26:00 +0800 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Alex Boskov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Hi all Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, Well Peter got the ball rolling so I thought I'd add my bit. I've got OSLO LT and a few other design packages but the problem I'm having is finding decent tutorials that show you how to use this software. Any documentation that come with these packages seem to be written in a way that assumes the user is a full bottle on the subject. So if anyone knows any great tutorials or web sites could you please share them. Cheers Alex From kenb@cqg.com Fri Dec 7 08:20:04 2001 Received: from cqgigw.cqg.com (cqgigw.cqg.com [63.117.14.243]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7FK3U14793 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:20:03 -0700 Received: from cqgmail.cqg.com (cqgmail.cqg.com [192.168.1.9]) by cqgigw.cqg.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fB7FJauX006035; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:37 -0700 Received: from d2pkenb (d2pkenb.cqgrd.com [172.16.10.53]) by cqgmail.cqg.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with SMTP id fB7FJ9Ph025922; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:09 -0700 From: "Ken Bertapelle" To: "Hermit" Cc: Subject: RE: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 08:19:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3C102EA1.5CB460F4@cisnet.com> X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: A while back I tried this using John Upton's OSLO-LT file for setting up the Dahl null test. I eventually got to the point where I could use the program and and run through the procedure to do the setup. And I think I could even interpret the results correctly. (I _think_!) But even at the end of all that I still felt like the monkey who accidentally manages to type the Ecyclopedia Brittanica. Something I still don't really understand is the conceptual basis of it all. For example, in the Dahl null test, what are the detailed concepts involved? What are we trying to optimize? What are the meanings of the terms used, such as "error at the wavefront", "error at the surface", and so on. I think a discussion of the conceptual framework would be very helpful, together with a discussion of how raytracing in general helps us set up and solve optical problems. BTW, somewhere I have a spreadsheet that I set up that is based on John's tutorial on the Dahl null test. It's a detailed description of the procedure using OSLO-LT. If others are interested I can make it available. I don't have a web site so I can't post it myself. - Ken Bertapelle > -----Original Message----- > From: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com > [mailto:raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com]On Behalf Of Hermit > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:51 PM > Cc: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? > > > "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > > > > Where do you want to get started on this list? I don't > know exactly > > what level of knowledge already exists, so I am unsure. What > do you want > > to discuss? One possible starting point is to discuss things > common to all > > ray-tracing programs -- or whether there is anything in common. > > For many of us, a simple file to look at in a program might help. Maybe > pick a program and look at the file and do simple modifications. A > simple lens might be a good starting place. Followed by a reflector. > Figuring out how/why to set up the original paramaters isn't intuitive > as I recall. > > > > -- > Ken Lowther > Youngstown, Ohio > http://www.atmsite.org > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap > _______________________________________________ > Raytrace mailing list > Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace > From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 7 09:47:19 2001 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7GlIU14932 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 09:47:18 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap041.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.153] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16CO9J-0008CX-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:46:57 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:44:59 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 18:46 12/6/2001 -0600, John D. Upton wrote: > For starters, do all programs use the same conventions for data entry? > > OSLO uses a "spreadsheet" format. If you draw out a design on paper > with light starting from the left, the following rules apply. Are these > basic rules the same for all other programs we might be interested in using? I don't *know* the answer to this, but I think professional level design programs are generally consistent in surface numbering and sign conventions as long as you stick to centered systems. I don't think that's necessarily the case with some of the atm oriented software out there. There seem to be no generally accepted standards for specifying tilts & rotations. Documenting differences among programs that atm's are likely to use might be a worthwhile FAQ item. >Perhaps a couple of text prescriptions from OSLO will help illustrate the >(typical?) data entry formats. >This is the text printout of an OSLO design for a simple double convex >lens made of Schott BK7 glass. I'd like to make a modest administrative suggestion here. OSLO .len files are just text files, and they're usually quite short. Embedding the complete file in your posts separated from the text by asterisks or something won't waste a lot of bandwidth -- interested readers can cut, paste, and save using notepad or any other text editor. I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public too). I think Peter Smith is right that the best way to learn this stuff is to play around with existing designs. I learned what little I know by entering published designs from any source I could find into OSLO, and gradually learned new capabilities of the program by trying to extend and optimize existing designs. I've never gotten beyond capabilities that can be accessed with spreadsheet entries, menu selections, or taskbar clicks, but you can do quite a lot without ever mastering the programming language that's part of OSLO. Somewhere on atmsite there are a couple dozen OSLO files that I uploaded a year or so ago. Most of them were entered directly from R&vanV or other published designs. A few months ago Steve Fejes sent me some optimized, flat field APO designs that he built starting from an unoptimized 3 element design that I had swiped from some source (I've forgotten where). If Steve's on the list maybe he can explain how he got from my simple APO to his optimized field corrected version. He really did an amazing design job. The last bit of advice I'd offer is obvious to anyone who's done any kind of design work on a computer. Save files often. If your design goes hopelessly astray just give up and go back to your last working layout. OSLO LT seems to be pretty stable (at least version 5.4 was), and I've rarely crashed it just by doing stupid lens design tricks. I don't think I've ever caused my machine to crash with OSLO. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From jd-upton@texas.net Fri Dec 7 10:44:29 2001 Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7HiTU15032 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:44:29 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet23-053.austin.texas.net [209.99.97.116]) by mw2.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB7Hi8L04581; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:44:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011207111916.00b23eb0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:43:55 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Cc: Michael Peck In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <4.3.1.2.20011206184530.00b627a0@mail.texas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Mike, At 10:44 AM 12/7/2001 -0600, Michael Peck wrote: >no generally accepted standards for specifying tilts & rotations. >Documenting differences among programs that atm's are likely to use might >be a worthwhile FAQ item. Yes, I agree. That is exactly the type of information the FAQ should contain. It also leads into the next point you raised. >I'd like to make a modest administrative suggestion here. OSLO .len files >are just text files, and they're usually quite short. Embedding the >complete file in your posts separated from the text by asterisks or >something won't waste a I can include the full OSLO file for future examples. There are two problems I see with this, however. The first is that there have been changes in file format as OSLO has evolved. I have both Version 5.4 and Version 6.1 installed on my system. I use 6.1 for some things and 5.4 for others. The reason I keep the older version around is that it supported 12 surfaces while the new version supports only 10. I have an on-going design project that needs 11 surfaces. The second problem is that I was attempting to keep this list generalized to all ray-tracers and not overly advocate a specific one. That is why I posted the text form of the design file descriptions to the list rather than the files themselves. The text prescriptions are somewhat portable from one program to another (I think) and contain all the information about a design in more or less human readable format. Peter John Smith has raised the same concern about ZEMAX files. As you pointed out above, the FAQ should reflect how to do things in the most common programs. I didn't want to "standardize" this list on OSLO. Some members are already quite capable with other programs and may not want to learn OSLO. They have much general ray-tracing knowledge to share and I don't want them to not participate because we are all using a program they are not familiar with. Standardization here becomes two-edged sword. What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? Perhaps we could use OSLO for most of the concept examples (showing the text of the saved design files -- *not* file attachments) and have the users of other programs point out differences in how to do common tasks as we go along. I am willing to do whatever the list wants in this regard. >I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - >maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public >too). I think Peter Smith is right that the best way to learn this stuff is Ken is the person to address this. I think he already has some means of accepting file donations for posting on the ATM Site. Maybe we just need a separate page to list the design files with a short description of the contents. >astray just give up and go back to your last working layout. OSLO LT seems >to be pretty stable (at least version 5.4 was), and I've rarely crashed it >just I agree that OSLO is pretty stable. Version 5.4 is very stable for me on Windows 95, 98, and Me. Version 6.1 has given me some problems on Windows Me, but I've learned to work around them. As you say, they have never crashed hard enough to damage any system files. John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 7 11:24:23 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov ([128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7IOMU15103 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:24:22 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22167 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:24:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011207121219.00ad4dd0@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:36:58 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi:
        Just like to express my thanks to John Upton for his post on raytrace origins.  The post included a message from Peter John Smith which contained a pointer to the site http://www.focussoftware.com/file_exchange/
which I did not know about.

        I went to the site and downloaded the files for the Shafer telescope and Dan Schroeder's (author of Astronomical Optics) files.  Dan's files contained, as PJ Smith mentioned, examples of four mirror telescope designs by RN Wilson.   These are exactly the examples I was looking for.
 
        For those interested, the designs by RN Wilson are for the next generation of extremely large (20-100m) ground telescopes.  Telescope mirrors this big cannot be made in one piece (for economical and practical reasons).  Hence they must be made of many segments.   For reasons of affordability and manufacturability, it is best to make all the mirror segments identical.  Hence the segments are all spherical (spheres and flats are the only possible geometrical figures), resulting in a giant spherical primary mirror.

        The problem with a spherical primary mirror is that, unlike a parabola, it does not focus parallel rays from infinity to a point.  Therefore a minimum of three mirrors are required to make a telescope that has good resolution and an acceptable field of view.  Three mirrors, however, end up sending the light back towards the front of the scope.  That's why four is used in Wilson's design.  Having an extra mirror also permits some optimization, I'm told.

        I loaded the sample files into Zemax and looked at the 3d layout.  They look good.  I need to learn more Zemax and raytracing to understand the details.   But thanks to this list, it has saved me a lot of effort (as I have done in the past) trying to measure the diagrams with a ruler and infer the optical parameters from the original published articles.

Regards,
P.C. Chen
From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 7 11:45:38 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7IjbU15156 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:45:37 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27658 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:45:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011207123737.00ad8bd0@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:58:08 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Raytracing mirror support distortions (active optics) Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi: Thought to tell the list of another project I'm interested in, although I'm not sure how well it will work out. David Lewis has written an excellent program called PLOP which is available from his site http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~lewis/. PLOP computes the optical surface shape of a telescope under various support schemes (3 points, 9 points, multiple rings, etc). It is an excellent program and very user friendly. I thought it might be interesting to do raytracing for mirror under a variety of support schemes. This is called 'active optics'. It is especially applicable to large thin mirrors (a la Mel Bartels?). Acitve support is the technique used by the European Southern Observatory in its four 8 meter Very Large Telescopes, currently the biggest in the world. The mirrors are thin and therefore very sensitive to how they are supported. In fact, the VLT supports are cleverly designed to compensate for astigmatism, spherical aberrations, and coma. I wrote to David Lewis some time ago, and he kindly modified a PLOP program to output mirror shapes in Zernike terms. I'm trying to see if it is possible to use the PLOP generated Zernike terms and import them into Zemax (or other programs) and do a raytrace. The ultimate aim, of course, is to be able to adjust the support forces on a mirror to keep it at optimal shape during observations. Wish me luck. I'll try to keep the list informed of my progress. P.C. Chen From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 15:30:49 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7MUnU15525 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 15:30:49 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4158.cisnet.com [207.17.248.158]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:30:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3C114351.CF04BFB0@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 17:31:45 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Michael Peck wrote: > > I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - > maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public > too). I'll look into it when I have a chance. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 16:27:46 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7NRkU15619 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:27:46 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4143.cisnet.com [207.17.248.143]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:27:26 -0500 Message-ID: <3C1150A9.69207D8A@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:28:41 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter and all. The mail program is set so that replys go to the original poster. This is 'protection' from accidently sending a private email to the group. On my mailer, I must hit 'reply to all' if I am using the header from another post instead of starting 'fresh'. Ken -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:36:58 -0500 From: Peter Chen To: Hi: Just like to express my thanks to John Upton for his post on raytrace origins. The post included a message from Peter John Smith which contained a pointer to the site http://www.focussoftware.com/file_exchange/ which I did not know about. I went to the site and downloaded the files for the Shafer telescope and Dan Schroeder's (author of Astronomical Optics) files. Dan's files contained, as PJ Smith mentioned, examples of four mirror telescope designs by RN Wilson. These are exactly the examples I was looking for. For those interested, the designs by RN Wilson are for the next generation of extremely large (20-100m) ground telescopes. Telescope mirrors this big cannot be made in one piece (for economical and practical reasons). Hence they must be made of many segments. For reasons of affordability and manufacturability, it is best to make all the mirror segments identical. Hence the segments are all spherical (spheres and flats are the only possible geometrical figures), resulting in a giant spherical primary mirror. The problem with a spherical primary mirror is that, unlike a parabola, it does not focus parallel rays from infinity to a point. Therefore a minimum of three mirrors are required to make a telescope that has good resolution and an acceptable field of view. Three mirrors, however, end up sending the light back towards the front of the scope. That's why four is used in Wilson's design. Having an extra mirror also permits some optimization, I'm told. I loaded the sample files into Zemax and looked at the 3d layout. They look good. I need to learn more Zemax and raytracing to understand the details. But thanks to this list, it has saved me a lot of effort (as I have done in the past) trying to measure the diagrams with a ruler and infer the optical parameters from the original published articles. Regards, P.C. Chen _______________________________________________ Raytrace mailing list Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 16:28:45 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7NSjU15640 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:28:45 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4143.cisnet.com [207.17.248.143]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:28:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3C1150CC.D29AD01A@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:29:16 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Raytracing mirror support distortions (active optics)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Raytrace] Raytracing mirror support distortions (active optics) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:58:08 -0500 From: Peter Chen To: Hi: Thought to tell the list of another project I'm interested in, although I'm not sure how well it will work out. David Lewis has written an excellent program called PLOP which is available from his site http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~lewis/. PLOP computes the optical surface shape of a telescope under various support schemes (3 points, 9 points, multiple rings, etc). It is an excellent program and very user friendly. I thought it might be interesting to do raytracing for mirror under a variety of support schemes. This is called 'active optics'. It is especially applicable to large thin mirrors (a la Mel Bartels?). Acitve support is the technique used by the European Southern Observatory in its four 8 meter Very Large Telescopes, currently the biggest in the world. The mirrors are thin and therefore very sensitive to how they are supported. In fact, the VLT supports are cleverly designed to compensate for astigmatism, spherical aberrations, and coma. I wrote to David Lewis some time ago, and he kindly modified a PLOP program to output mirror shapes in Zernike terms. I'm trying to see if it is possible to use the PLOP generated Zernike terms and import them into Zemax (or other programs) and do a raytrace. The ultimate aim, of course, is to be able to adjust the support forces on a mirror to keep it at optimal shape during observations. Wish me luck. I'll try to keep the list informed of my progress. P.C. Chen _______________________________________________ Raytrace mailing list Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 7 16:35:55 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7NZsU15670 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:35:54 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4143.cisnet.com [207.17.248.143]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:35:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3C115292.C2FC7921@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 18:36:50 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes] References: <3C1150A9.69207D8A@cisnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [Raytrace] Spherical mirror telescopes > Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 12:36:58 -0500 > From: Peter Chen > To: > > But thanks to this list, it has saved me a lot of effort (as > I have done in the past) trying to measure the diagrams with a ruler and > infer the optical parameters from the original published articles. > > Regards, > P.C. Chen It is nice to know that there are results already. At least for someone. ;-) -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From trickar1@san.rr.com Fri Dec 7 21:35:20 2001 Received: from smtp2.san.rr.com (smtp2.san.rr.com [24.25.195.39]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB84ZJU16094 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:35:19 -0700 Received: from zxc (66-27-59-56.san.rr.com [66.27.59.56]) by smtp2.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fB84Z0m16020 for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:35:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> From: "Tim Rickard" To: References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:28:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? My two cents: For now, we could standardize on OSLO LT, or some other program if it is generally preferred, to make things more manageable. As Ken suggested, we could start with a simple Newtonian, since presumably all of us are generally familiar with it. The goal would be to make sure everyone has the software and the newt. file working, and to begin exploring how to do various analyses (e.g. wavefront, vingetting effects of various aperture stops, spot diagrams, etc). Then a central obstruction could be modeled, and the MTF analyzed. Then perhaps a simple refractor or a mak-newt., etc. I have in mind an integrated tutorial and Q&A that could become an FAQ. Over time there could be several FAQs on different, more advanced topics. The conceptual stuff is also crucial of course. For newbies like myself, however, getting a simple program running and exploring the program's analysis tools would help to frame the problems concretely while providing a quick success to maintain motivation... Of course, threads for discussing other programs and advanced topics would presumably go on in parallel... Tim From mayen1@mwt.net Sat Dec 8 06:42:14 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB8DgEU16885 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:42:14 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-3-176.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.176]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB8Dfqr10786; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:41:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C1218EF.FA6632AA@mwt.net> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 07:43:12 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Rickard CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I like this idea. And if we actually work out a step by step an actually constructable scope. all the better. Like One i have been thinking of,,(he he he) but yet have been able to figure out how to get it into the $#%&!#* programs. he he he. It starts out as a simple 10" f- 6 Newtonian. Joe Tim Rickard wrote: > > What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? > > My two cents: For now, we could standardize on OSLO LT, or some other > program > if it is generally preferred, to make things more manageable. As Ken > suggested, we could start with a simple Newtonian, since presumably all of > us are generally familiar with it. The goal would be to make sure everyone > has the software and the newt. file working, and to begin exploring how to > do various analyses (e.g. wavefront, vingetting effects of various aperture > stops, spot diagrams, etc). Then a central obstruction could be modeled, and > the MTF analyzed. Then perhaps a simple refractor or a mak-newt., etc. I > have in mind an integrated tutorial and Q&A that could become an FAQ. Over > time there could be several FAQs on different, more advanced topics. The > conceptual stuff is also crucial of course. For newbies like myself, > however, getting a simple program running and exploring the program's > analysis tools would help to frame the problems concretely while providing a > quick success to maintain motivation... > > Of course, threads for discussing other programs and advanced topics would > presumably go on in parallel... > > Tim > > _______________________________________________ > Raytrace mailing list > Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From bobmay@nethere.com Sat Dec 8 17:06:03 2001 Received: from lisa.nethere.net (lisa.nethere.net [216.188.38.14]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9062U17772 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:06:02 -0700 Received: from p120 (dyn2-15.sndg-c5300-2.nethere.net [216.188.53.143]) by lisa.nethere.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA89965 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:05:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00d101c18045$587bed60$8f35bcd8@p120> From: "Bob May" To: "raytrace" References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011207085427.00a2a110@popd.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:06:25 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >>I don't *know* the answer to this, but I think professional level design programs are generally consistent in surface numbering and sign conventions as long as you stick to centered systems. >> Unfortunately, there are differences between the programs as to the direction of things. I'm not familiar with them but have seen notes to that effect on the SCI.OPTICS newsgroup. This is because each and every person that figured out how to do raytracing way back when thought up their standard directions and the rest of the community has never gotten around to stating that a particular set of directions is the right way. I hope this gets to the right path. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay bobmay@nethere.com NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net From jd-upton@texas.net Sat Dec 8 18:40:56 2001 Received: from mw1.texas.net (mw1.texas.net [206.127.30.11]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB91euU17914 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 18:40:56 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet22-013.austin.texas.net [209.99.97.13]) by mw1.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB91eQi29501 for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:40:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20011208182344.00b26a80@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 19:40:08 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? In-Reply-To: <3C1218EF.FA6632AA@mwt.net> References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tim, Joe, This sounds okay to me. We don't seem to have had any takers yet, so here is my attempt to start this process. At 08:28 PM 12/7/2001 -0800, Tim Rickard wrote: > > What say you, List? Can we do both effectively? > >My two cents: For now, we could standardize on OSLO LT, or some other >program >if it is generally preferred, to make things more manageable. As Ken >suggested, we could start with a simple Newtonian, since presumably all of >us are generally familiar with it. The goal would be to make sure everyone >has the software and the newt. file working, and to begin exploring how to >do various analyses (e.g. wavefront, vingetting effects of various aperture >stops, spot diagrams, etc). Then a central obstruction could be modeled, and At 07:43 AM 12/8/2001 -0600, Joe Mayenschein wrote: >I like this idea. > >And if we actually work out a step by step an actually constructable >scope. all >the better. Like One i have been thinking of,,(he he he) but yet have been >able to figure out how to get it into the $#%&!#* programs. he he he. > >It starts out as a simple 10" f- 6 Newtonian. Here is the text prescription for the 10" F/6 Newtonian. The full text of the OSLO-LT file appears at the bottom of this post. Cut the text between the lines and paste it into a file named "newt_10_F6.len" to reconstruct your own copy. *LENS DATA 10" F/6.0 Newtonian SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST -120.000000 -60.000000 S 5.000000 AS REFL_HATCH * IMS -- -- 6.0000e-05 S You can also just follow the steps below to create this file yourself. I am using OSLO-LT version 6.1 for this example. 1. Open OSLO-LT. 2. Select File | New Lens... 3. For the file name type newt_10_F6.len 4. For number of surfaces, enter 1. The mirror is the only optical surface in this example. 5. Select OK. The "Surface Data" window will open. Note that there are three lines and multiple columns in the "spreadsheet". The first is labeled OBJ for object, the second is labeled AST for aperture stop, and the third is labeled IMS for image surface. Since there is only one optical surface in this example, that is where the aperture stop must be placed. If there were multiple surfaces, the aperture stop could appear on any one of them and the others would have a number in the SRF label column. The surface numbers would be in listed in the order that light strikes them. 6. In the "Surface Data" Window, select the Gen button. 7. In the "General Conditions" Window, select the Units button and set to inches. 8. In the "Lens:" field, enter a name for the design. I am using '10" F/6.0 Newtonian' for my name. (This is actually a description of the design, not a file name, so it can be almost anything you want. If you want, you can enter even more notes by pressing the "Notes" button and entering your extra data.) 9. Click on the green check mark in the upper left corner. This always accepts the data and can be used to close the window. 10. In the "Surface Data" window, click in the "Ent beam radius" field. Enter the value of the entrance beam radius. This will be the radius of the mirror for this example. Enter 5.0 or you can use the built in formula capability by typing 10.0/2.0 (or 10/2). Press the enter key or click on green check mark. (If you happen to click twice, the "Surface Data" window will close. Open it again by selecting Lens | Update lens data... 11. Click in the RADIUS field of the AST line. Enter the radius of curvature of the mirror. Remember the data entry conventions presented in an earlier post. Since light starts out moving left to right, the concave mirror will have its center of curvature to the left of the mirror itself. This means that the ROC must be entered as a negative number. Again, I will just use the formula capability to enter the ROC of the 10" F/6 mirror. I type -10*6*2 and press enter. 12. Now I have to tell OSLO that this surface is a mirror. I select the button in the GLASS column of line AST and choose Reflect (hatch). We now have a spherical mirror described in the spreadsheet. Save this intermediate result by selecting File | Save. 13. To tell OSLO this is a paraboloidal mirror for a Newtonian, we need to specify its conic constant. Click on the button in the SPECIAL column of the AST line. Select Polynomial Asphere | Conic / Tonic. In the "Conic / Tonic Data" window, enter -1.0 in the Conic constant entry field. Close the Conic / Tonic window by clicking the green check mark. 14. Finally, let's let OSLO find the focal length of the mirror for us. Click on the button in the THICKNESS column of the AST line. Select the Solves | Axial ray height... item. In the "Axial Ray Height" box that pops up, enter 0 and select OK. We just told OSLO we wanted it to find the place where the ray has an axial height of 0 -- in other words where is crosses the optical axis. That marks the paraxial focal point. We are done. Save the file. You now should have a file that is the same as what I have appended in text form below. If you select the "Len" button in the OSLO "TW 1" text window, it should print the same human readable lens prescription that I included at the top of this note. Study its format. It actually contains almost all of the data pertaining to this design. The only thing missing is the conic constant for the mirror. That can be included also by clicking the Spe button in the "TW 1" text window. The contents of this window may be copied and pasted into any text application -- like this post. Cut this and paste into a new notepad file named "newt_10_F6.len". ===CUT BELOW THIS LINE=========================== // OSLO 6.1 41540 0 0 LEN NEW "10\" F/6.0 Newtonian" -60 2 EBR 5.0 ANG 0.0000572957795 DES "OSLO" UNI 25.4 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 9.9999999995e+13 NXT // SRF 1 RFH RD -120.0 PY 0.0 CC -1.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 2 ===CUT ABOVE THIS LINE=========================== Let me know if I have messed up this description. Doing a "tutorial" like this real time, I often don't recognize mistakes since it is still too fresh in my mind. John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From dchaffee@blitz-it.net Sun Dec 9 01:12:02 2001 Received: from blitz-it.net ([207.150.87.7]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB98C2U18540 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 01:12:02 -0700 Received: by blitz-it.net from localhost (router,slmail V5.1); Sun, 09 Dec 2001 02:15:46 -0600 for Received: from computer [199.240.90.64] by blitz-it.net [207.150.87.7] (MailWarden 5.1.0.1059 (SLmail Add-On Edition)) with SMTP id C12C0BF5EC7411D591EA0048541AF1E6 for ; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 02:15:44 -0600 Message-ID: <004a01c18089$ac6bb7e0$085af0c7@computer> From: "Dan Chaffee" To: Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Where To Start? Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 02:15:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-SLUIDL: C063DE48-EC7411D5-91EA0048-541AF1E6 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >I'd also suggest - if the site owner and list administrators are willing - maintaining a file upload/download area for list members (maybe the public too). I think Peter Smith is right that the best way to learn this stuff is to play around with existing designs. I learned what little I know by entering published designs from any source I could find into OSLO, and gradually learned new capabilities of the program by trying to extend and optimize existing designs. I've never gotten beyond capabilities that can be accessed with spreadsheet entries, menu selections, or taskbar clicks, but you can do quite a lot without ever mastering the programming language >that's part of OSLO. Mike, All, This really sums it up for my experience as well. I've manipulated radii and glass types from the simple achromat example you sent me a year ago and learned how to balance enough of the factors to design a decent 176mm f/18(!) BK7-F2 oiled doublet. I wanted to KISS and keep all surfaces spherical since I don't have a reference flat big enough for a double bypass knife edge test. Within the simple parameters of the ray analysis, wavefront evaluation, spot diagrams, and PSF, I've allegedly got a design that should be well color corrected, very low LA on axis in 546nm, and coma no worse than a longish newtonian. Actually, I also arrived at a Fraunhofer of the variant same f/# that is clearly better with off axis performance, but I wanted the advantages of the oiled R2&3 for better transmission and reduction of scatter. The advice on designing lenses in R&V is good and spells out the proccess of trial and error for balancing achromatism with acceptable OSC very well. Here are the specs for the oiled doublet: R1=1490mm R2=-1373 R3=-1373 R4=-14900 T1=17mm T2=16mm Glass 1 is BK7 with Nd=1.51678,Vd=64.15 Glass 2 is F2 with Nd=1.619; Vd-36.34 und der Fraunhofer: R1=2004mm R2=-1106 Air gap= 3.6 R3=-1116 R4=-4330 T1=18 T2=15 Same glasses If anyone wants, I'll email the actual OSLOlt lens files. I had Roger C. run my design through Zemax and he seemed to feel it would be a good performer. I'd welcome anyone elses comments if they are interested. At any rate, the grinding is 98% complete, so I'll know shortly whether or not this will perform to my liking. One possible problem is in the melt data from the glass broker, which gave an odd rationality of dispersion., but was within the range of what is acceptable per the written guarantee, so I couldn't return it. The sales rep I complained to made the mistake of telling me he sold glass to Roland Christian. Naturally, I contacted Roland about the specs and this broker in particular. He advised me to ignore the supplied melt data, since glass brokers rarely have equiptment accurate enough to read indicies and dispersions to justify values under .01. At best their values can only ahow a general trend in higher or lower indicies resulting from the fine & precision annealing that they do. He also said he'd long since done business with the broker in question.... Dan Chaffee From fmilsom@lineone.net Sun Dec 9 07:24:01 2001 Received: from mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com (mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com [212.74.112.73]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9ENmU19051 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 07:23:54 -0700 Received: from ppp-225-4-226.friaco.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.225.4.226] helo=j6u0z9) by mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16D4oe-000FDk-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:20:29 +0000 Message-ID: <004201c180bd$2f9bd2c0$e204e150@j6u0z9> From: "francis milsom" To: Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:21:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [Raytrace] Getting started Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Perhaps a good place to start, especially for those with no background = in tracing optical systems is for someone who perhaps has the = experience, to give some details of more popular (free?) downloadable = programs and their url's. That way those without the programs can get up = to speed more easily and contribute to the list in a more understandable = way. Francis ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
 
Perhaps a good place to start, = especially for those=20 with no background in tracing optical systems is for someone who = perhaps=20 has the experience, to give some details of more = popular (free?)=20 downloadable programs and their url's. That way those without the = programs can=20 get up to speed more easily and contribute to the list in a more = understandable=20 way.
 
Francis
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C180BC.CB760180-- From mayen1@mwt.net Sun Dec 9 08:12:54 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9FCsU19133 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:12:54 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-5-60.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.69.60]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB9FCU925534 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:12:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C137FB0.E73AA287@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:13:52 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Raytrace!" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] File Storage Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi All, I just made or at yahoo groups a place we can store files, images, plans, whatever. a somewhat crude archive for files etc. It is usually used as a message board e-mail reflector type of thing.. but it has a lot of more features also like the file data storage feature. we can stuff 20 meg's of files there for free. The front door to the area is,, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learn_to_raytrace I'm putting in the 10" f-6 oslo file in there as soon as i'm done with this message. let me know if you guys like the storage idea? Joe P.S. On yahoo,, i'm fuzzydog1 ,,, don't ask.. he he From klowther@cisnet.com Sun Dec 9 08:34:11 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9FYAU19184 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:34:11 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4131.cisnet.com [207.17.248.131]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 10:33:47 -0500 Message-ID: <3C138496.96F8FBD@cisnet.com> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 10:34:46 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "Raytrace!" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] File Storage References: <3C137FB0.E73AA287@mwt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Joe Mayenschein wrote: I personaly have given up on Yahoo. Our club has a list there. I sent my final message to it yesterday. It never showed up. Maybe because I refuse to sign up with Yahoo? You cannot access the files and archives unless you open an account with Yahoo. The list owner can directly subscribe someone to a mailing list but all of the options are closed to them. Yahoo's taking over egroups is the main reason I learned how to install and configure the Mailman software. ;-) Since the files are text base, it shouldn't be a big deal for people to save them as files in a directory on their hard disks. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap From mayen1@mwt.net Sun Dec 9 08:58:29 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9FwTU19237 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 08:58:29 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-2-124.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.124]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fB9Fw3916267; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:58:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C138A5B.D48183CB@mwt.net> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 09:59:24 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hermit CC: "Raytrace!" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] File Storage References: <3C137FB0.E73AA287@mwt.net> <3C138496.96F8FBD@cisnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: If you haven't noticed or read their messages Yahoo is killing all the "Clubs" they are moving to the "Groups" format and names. You need to change your "Club" over to a "Group" I am the member of over 50 "Groups" and all work fine. It's the clubs that are erratic and not working at all if any ,, anymore. Joe Hermit wrote: > Joe Mayenschein wrote: > > I personaly have given up on Yahoo. Our club has a list there. I sent > my final message to it yesterday. It never showed up. Maybe because I > refuse to sign up with Yahoo? You cannot access the files and archives > unless you open an account with Yahoo. The list owner can directly > subscribe someone to a mailing list but all of the options are closed to > them. > > Yahoo's taking over egroups is the main reason I learned how to install > and configure the Mailman software. ;-) Since the files are text base, > it shouldn't be a big deal for people to save them as files in a > directory on their hard disks. > > -- > Ken Lowther > Youngstown, Ohio > http://www.atmsite.org > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap > _______________________________________________ > Raytrace mailing list > Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From rflrs@javanet.com Sun Dec 9 09:05:59 2001 Received: from mail1.javanet.com (mail1.javanet.com [205.219.162.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB9G5wU19267 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:05:58 -0700 Received: from javanet.com (216-164-247-191.s2413.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [216.164.247.191]) by mail1.javanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA09367 for ; Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:05:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C138CE7.1080506@javanet.com> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 16:10:15 +0000 From: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] where to start? References: <200112071900.fB7J03U15205@blackhole.idcomm.com> <009601c17fa0$c7fe20e0$383b1b42@san.rr.com> <4.3.1.2.20011208182344.00b26a80@mail.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John D. Upton wrote: > Tim, Joe, > > This sounds okay to me. We don't seem to have had any takers yet, > so here is my attempt to start this process. > > > Let me know if I have messed up this description. Doing a > "tutorial" like this real time, I often don't recognize mistakes since > it is still too fresh in my mind. > > > John D. Upton > Georgetown, TX > "The ATM's Workshop" > "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" For those that are used to Zemax, I found the button sequence: Then browse to import your .zmx file. It may complain a lot about the optimization function commands, but it seems to at least pick up the lens data, apertures, field angles and wavelengths (with weights). Rick S. > From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Tue Dec 11 09:54:51 2001 Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBBGspU23169 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:54:51 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-001ilurbap063.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.47] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16DqAc-0004Jb-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:54:19 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011211091352.00a28b30@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:49:53 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] 3 Newtonian layouts Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I'm going to make a small contribution to the cause with 3 Newtonian layouts that illustrate some OSLO LT capabilities. These are pretty OSLO LT specific, so I'm going to skip the text description and just give the OSLO scripts at the end. I'm also afraid I don't have time to give step by step instructions for creating these right now, but I will make some comments. I created these in OSLO LT 6.1, but they seem to load and look OK in ver. 5.4. VERSION 1 This is the same 10" f/6 newtonian that John sent the other day, with a few small changes: 1) I really prefer metric units when playing these games, so I leave the units in the default of millimeters. So the entrance beam radius is 125mm and the radius of surface 1 (AST) is -3000. 2) I've set the field angle to 0.9 degrees. Notice in the "Aperture radius" column the radius at the image surface is about 23.6mm, so this is just about the maximum field size available with 2" eyepieces. 3) This is a trick I picked up somewhere that may or may not be useful. I insert a dummy surface at the end in front of the image surface (IMS) that I always make coincide with the paraxial focus. The main reason I originally did this is the default behavior of OSLO is to draw out to the last defined surface instead of drawing all the way to focus. This forces it to draw the complete layout. There's actually a menu item to change this behavior, so you don't really need to do this for that reason. The other reason I do it is that in more complex designs the paraxial focus might not be the best focus, and this allows you to manipulate image surface settings independently of the paraxial focus. VERSION 2 Now I'm going to add a Newtonian secondary and account for the obstruction that it causes. OSLO isn't smart enough to realize that having a secondary near the end of the optical train implies that incoming light is obstructed, so this requires adding two surfaces to the design - the secondary is surface 3, and the initial obstruction is defined in surface 1. The primary now becomes surface 2, but it still is the aperture stop (AST). To create the secondary what I did was reason that you need about 5" for the mirror + 1" to the tube + 2 1/2" for focuser plus back focus allowance, or a total of about 210mm from secondary to image plane. That means the primary - secondary spacing is 1500-210 = 1290 mm. So, I set the thickness at the primary to -1290mm. The secondary radius is set to 0 -- OSLO actually interprets this as a curvature of 0, ie the surface is flat. I use an aperture solve (default behavior) to get a secondary size of 37.76mm. Now to make this a 45 degree Newtonian flat you click on the button in the last column labelled "SPECIAL" and choose the popup menu item "Coordinates". This is where you specify tilts and decenters. I just need one tilt; I enter 45 in the in the "Rotation Angle" entry TLA. I don't know exactly what this means, but you also have to click on the button next to the label "Tilt and bend:". It should read Yes. Click on the check mark at the top of the data entry table to accept changes. Finally, to define the obstruction I use data from surface 3 to define surface 1. I don't know a smarter way to do this: OSLO calculated the secondary size to be just under 37.8mm. What I've done is place surface 1 at a distance of +1290mm from the primary. I define a special aperture by clicking on the button in the "Aperture radius" column and then selecting the "Special aperture data" menu item. The "Type" of special aperture is an ellipse, its action is to "obstruct" and the min and max values for X and Y are set to -+ 37.8. Back in the main data entry spreadsheet notice that I've solved for the aperture radius, which turns out to be just over 145mm. That is the size of the unvignetted light cone at that point, which tells us the tube needs to be at least this large. VERSION 3 Well, OSLO just told us that if we want a fully illuminated 2" diameter field we need a secondary with a semi-minor axis size of 37.8mm - that's over 30% obstruction! Not so good. I'm going to guess that a 20% obstruction is more reasonable, so I'm going to make the secondary aperture radius and obstruction size 25mm. OSLO also isn't smart enough to realize that a 45 degree flat should be elliptical in shape, so the other change I'm going to make in the final version is to tell it that surface 3 is elliptical. Again you do this by entering special aperture data. In this case I again have a surface type of "ellipse", the action is to "transmit" (don't worry, the light still reflects off the surface), and minimum and maximum values for X and Y are set to -+25 and -+25*sqrt(2) respectively. By the way, if you're wondering about extraneous digits of precision in the Y values, it turns out you can do simple calculations when entering numbers in OSLO data sheets. Instead of whipping out a calculator or multiplying 25 by 1.4 in my head and getting 43 I just typed in 25*sqrt(2) in these boxes. Comments: 1) Since a flat doesn't do anything optically you'd rarely need to set one up in a telescope design. If you're interested in the effects of an obstruction on MTF or something you can just define an obstruction. On the other hand if you're interested in, say, curvature tolerances on "flats" it's helpful to be able to add one to a design. Now you can enter non-zero curvatures into the surface specification and see how a curved Newtonian secondary creates astigmatism. 2) Most of this analysis is probably easier in one of the many Newtonian design programs that you can get for free. In this case the main extra you get for the effort with OSLO is wavefront analysis. There are also some basic vignetting analysis tools - they are under the main menu item "Optimize -- Support routines" in OSLO 6.1. 3) Except for this I've done exactly one telescope design that used tilts, so don't expect a lot of insight from me into how to create general TCT layouts. *****newt_250f6.len****** // OSLO 6.1 14289 0 64702 LEN NEW "Newtonian 250mm f/6" -1500 3 EBR 125.0 ANG 0.9 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 1.5709255324e+18 NXT // SRF 1 RFL RD -3000.0 PY 0.0 CC -1.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR NXT // SRF 3 AIR CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 3 SDAD 41.05 SDSA On ****end ***** ***** newt_250f6_s.len ***** // OSLO 6.1 23681 0 64702 LEN NEW "Newtonian 250mm f/6" 1500 5 EBR 125.0 ANG 0.9 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 1.5709255324e+18 NXT // SRF 1 AIR TH 1290.0 APN 1 AY1 A -37.8 AY2 A 37.8 AX1 A -37.8 AX2 A 37.8 ATP A 1 AAC A 2 NXT // SRF 2 RFL TCE 0.0 RD -3000.0 TH -1290.0 AST CC -1.0 NXT // SRF 3 RFL PY 0.0 DT 1 TLA 45.0 BEN NXT // SRF 4 AIR NXT // SRF 5 AIR CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 5 SDAD 41.05 SDSA On ****end**** ***** newt_250f6_s2.len ***** // OSLO 6.1 43729 0 64702 LEN NEW "Newtonian 250mm f/6" 1500 5 EBR 125.0 ANG 0.9 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 1.5709255324e+18 NXT // SRF 1 AIR TH 1290.0 APN 1 AY1 A -25.0 AY2 A 25.0 AX1 A -25.0 AX2 A 25.0 ATP A 1 AAC A 2 NXT // SRF 2 RFL TCE 0.0 RD -3000.0 TH -1290.0 AST CC -1.0 NXT // SRF 3 RFL PY 0.0 AP 25.0 DT 1 TLA 45.0 BEN APN 1 AY1 A -35.3553390593274 AY2 A 35.3553390593274 AX1 A -25.0 AX2 A 25.0 ATP A 1 AAC A 4 NXT // SRF 4 AIR NXT // SRF 5 AIR CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 5 SDAD 41.05 SDSA On ****end**** _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From trickar1@san.rr.com Tue Dec 11 23:41:19 2001 Received: from smtp2.san.rr.com (smtp2.san.rr.com [24.25.195.39]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBC6fJU24272 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:41:19 -0700 Received: from zxc (66-27-59-56.san.rr.com [66.27.59.56]) by smtp2.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fBC6eom24654 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:40:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ad01c182d7$032dd780$383b1b42@san.rr.com> From: "Tim Rickard" To: References: <200112111901.fBBJ13U23361@blackhole.idcomm.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:34:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [Raytrace] Re: Raytrace digest, Vol 1 #9 - 1 msg Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John and Mike, thanks for contributing the newt. files and comments. These should be a great help. As time permits, I'll explore these over the next few days and let you know how it goes. Skies of clarity, Tim From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Wed Dec 12 02:45:21 2001 Received: from mta02bw.bigpond.com (mta02bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.34]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBC9jJU24530 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 02:45:20 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.24.81]) by mta02bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GO861Z00.BPZ for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:51:35 +1000 Received: from 144.138.91.147 ([144.138.91.147]) by bwmam05.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0g 38/892664); 12 Dec 2001 19:44:41 Message-ID: <000201c182f1$a20106b0$935b8a90@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011211091352.00a28b30@popd.ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:35:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [Raytrace] A useful sequence Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Been rather busy. For those just beginning, here are some useful exercises. In isolation, some are trivial and apparently rather stupid. But, in retrospect, I do think they are very useful. Given that an optical design software package is much more than a raytracer, it is worth useing the built in optimiser to do any trivial thing in an attempt to become really at home with it. The computer evaluation may be impressive but its the optimiser that is pure magic. Thats why few free programs have one. I am not sure how to do this with OSLO but would be surprised if there was much of a problem. As you pass from one stage to another, keep a general file handy. Then when you ever want to play with something similar, just modify it. =========================== 1/ Set up a spherical primary newtonian. The 10 inch F:6 Newtonian mentioned before could be a good starter. However, since I never work in anything but mm for optical design, I would do a 250 mm diam F:6 instead. mm is pretty well a world standard for optics. If I want to change to inches later it is easy in Zemax. Check oyt OSLO to see if this can also be done at the touch of a button. It may be easier to modify the file already talked about by changing the mirror to a sphere (ie conic const from -1 to 0) You could assess the performance - we know it will not be be very good. 2/ Now change both the conic constant and the distance to prime focus to variables. Leave the R of the mirror as it is. You may want to only consider on axis rays since the optimiser may give slightly different results over a wide field so only ose field rays of 0 deg. Using the optimiser. solve for the best focus distance and conic const. Trivial and pointless maybe. But since we know what the answer should be, it is a good check that all is well. And if it works, then the method can be built on with confidence. 3/ Now lets turn the Newt into a Cassegrainian scope. Firstly with a spherical secondary. Place a mirror 1000 mm from the primary. Set the distance from secondary to image as 1500 mm. (Most call this the back focal length of the system - but most ATM's would call the 500 mm back beyond the primary the Back Focal Length. A real point of confusion when talking about this) Remove all variables, then make the Radius of curvature of the sec a variable. Leave its surface a sphere. Optimise, to find the correct Radius of Curvature of the secondary. Evaluate the design - its not very good - as expected. 4/ Lets turn this into a cass with Parabolic primary but conic secondaqry. Remove all variables. Create variables on conic const of the sec and its radius of curvature. Optimise. This now tells us the shape of the sec and its curvature fior these distances. At this point it may be worth introducing a field ray at 0.1 degrees from axis. The optimisation will be more relavant to the real world. Now optimise again and evaluate. 5/ Lets turn this into a Dall Kirkham cass - with spherical sec. Remove all variables. Make the sec conic const = 0. Create variables on radius of curvature of the sec and the conic const of the primary. Optimise and see what eventuates. Evaluation compares poorly with the classical cass off axis. 6/ Of course, the RC cass is created in a similar way but the primary , secondary, and radius of curvature of the sec are all made variables. Optimisation will now create a better performer over the whole field. Much beloved by designers but a real bitch to make. NOTE. Depending on your program, it may be necessary to create a new optimisation function before each step. Some programs are happy with minor changes without doing this but for any major change, even a change in field angle, it becomes necessary for best - or evrn sensible results. Of course, most of these designs are not very sensible. We did not bother tailering the specs to what the customer wanted. But if you have come this far, you now should trust the optimiser and can investigate all sorts of possibilities. I am not sure whether these files should be made available in OSLO format. The whole exercise is in creating them. It is remarkable what we have achieved without any maths. We did need to know roughly where the cass sec should be - but apart from this it was all done by the program ans some common sense. Finally, if you have not already done so, create more and more variables in a design and optimise and watch the design run amok. Mathematically, it is making sense but its not what is needed in the real world. You have to judiciously use certain surfaces and spacinga as anchor points when optimising to keep the design in check in conjunction with targeted variables. Have fun. Peter Smith. From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 14 11:22:48 2001 Received: from poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.254.134]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBEIMlU14079 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:22:48 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by poph-f.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18830 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:22:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011214010842.00ad8e70@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:19:35 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Re: A useful sequence Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi: I went through Peter Smith's suggested sequence. It worked well and was very instructive. I had no problem getting up to the Newtonian, Cassegrain, and thru the Dall-Kirkham. However, the optimization routines (Hammer, Golbal) would not converge when going from Dall-Kirkham to RItchey-Chretien when the secondary radius, primary and secondary conics were set to 'variable'. After several attempts, I found that if I started from a Cassegrain and set the merit function to 'ptv spot size' rather than 'rms spot size', it converged. So I guess the lesson is that, in raytracing, it helps to know where to start. Am I correct? Regards, P.C. Chen From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Dec 14 12:04:15 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBEJ4EU14195 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:04:15 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4132.cisnet.com [207.17.248.132]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:03:39 -0500 Message-ID: <3C1A4D40.3A95408E@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:04:32 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" Subject: [Fwd: [Raytrace] Re: A useful sequence] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter. I am starting to think that your mailer has inserted my address in where the list address should be. ;-) Might want to check the address book listing. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Raytrace] Re: A useful sequence Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 01:19:35 -0500 From: Peter Chen To: Hi: I went through Peter Smith's suggested sequence. It worked well and was very instructive. I had no problem getting up to the Newtonian, Cassegrain, and thru the Dall-Kirkham. However, the optimization routines (Hammer, Golbal) would not converge when going from Dall-Kirkham to RItchey-Chretien when the secondary radius, primary and secondary conics were set to 'variable'. After several attempts, I found that if I started from a Cassegrain and set the merit function to 'ptv spot size' rather than 'rms spot size', it converged. So I guess the lesson is that, in raytracing, it helps to know where to start. Am I correct? Regards, P.C. Chen _______________________________________________ Raytrace mailing list Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From trickar1@san.rr.com Fri Dec 14 16:17:55 2001 Received: from smtp2.san.rr.com (smtp2.san.rr.com [24.25.195.39]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBENHtU14546 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:17:55 -0700 Received: from zxc (66-27-59-56.san.rr.com [66.27.59.56]) by smtp2.san.rr.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id fBENHJm16866 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:17:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ea01c184f4$8b9b9340$383b1b42@san.rr.com> From: "Tim Rickard" To: References: <200112141900.fBEJ03U14182@blackhole.idcomm.com> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:10:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [Raytrace] Re: Raytrace digest, Vol 1 #11 - 1 msg Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: It appears that the routines are simultaneously optimizing for multiple parameters. If so, the solution is probably non-linear, and most non-linear optimizers run some risk of finding a local minimum (a shallow valley it cannot get out of; as opposed the global minimum, the best solution). There is also the possibility that it won't be able to converge on anything at all, or will bump up against a boundary condition, which doesn't make it happy either. Yes, starting value can be very critical for non-linear optimization. The comments above apply generally, though I don't know the details of the optimizer you are working with. I hope this is useful. Tim > I went through Peter Smith's suggested sequence. It worked well and was > very instructive. > I had no problem getting up to the Newtonian, Cassegrain, and thru the > Dall-Kirkham. However, the optimization routines (Hammer, Golbal) would > not converge when going from Dall-Kirkham to RItchey-Chretien when the > secondary radius, primary and secondary conics were set to > 'variable'. After several attempts, I found that if I started from a > Cassegrain and set the merit function to 'ptv spot size' rather than 'rms > spot size', it converged. > So I guess the lesson is that, in raytracing, it helps to know where to > start. Am I correct? > > Regards, > P.C. Chen > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Raytrace mailing list > Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com > http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace > > > End of Raytrace Digest > From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Fri Dec 14 20:10:25 2001 Received: from mta02bw.bigpond.com (mta02bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.34]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBF3AOU14922 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2001 20:10:24 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.24.84]) by mta02bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GOD7R000.2LT for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 13:16:12 +1000 Received: from 144.138.91.36 ([144.138.91.36]) by bwmam06.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0f 47/887178); 15 Dec 2001 13:09:17 Message-ID: <018101c18515$f1030940$314c8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: References: <4.2.2.20011214010842.00ad8e70@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Re: A useful sequence Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:41:44 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter Chen wrote > I went through Peter Smith's suggested sequence. It worked well and was > very instructive. > I had no problem getting up to the Newtonian, Cassegrain, and thru the > Dall-Kirkham. However, the optimization routines (Hammer, Golbal) would > not converge when going from Dall-Kirkham to RItchey-Chretien when the > secondary radius, primary and secondary conics were set to > 'variable'. After several attempts, I found that if I started from a > Cassegrain and set the merit function to 'ptv spot size' rather than 'rms > spot size', it converged. > So I guess the lesson is that, in raytracing, it helps to know where to > start. Am I correct? The sequence I suggested I had checked with Zemax just to make sure that it worked. But I just used the plain optimiser which is far more direct and if you have a good idea of what you want much faster. For the other people, Hammer and Global optimisers are a special feature of Zemax to explore possibilities far outside the parameters chosen and this will be irrelevant to most people. I have never been able to get much useful data from the Hammer and Global optimisers and they caused a computer hangup on my old computer. Must try them on this new one. But seriously, if you are more or less in control of the situation they are not needed and even are a liability. But Peter Chen has raised a point about optimisers. There are so many settable goals possible that it becomes a bit of an art to use them in some special cases and you may have to play with some of the conditions. Some optics situations are easy with optimisers - others seem laced with local minima which trick the optimiser and lead it far from the wanted direction. Those in this sequence are I believe quite straightforward and the optimiser should converge nicely even starting a long way from the solution. A Wynne corrector has many local minima and it is best to start with a prescription close to the final and only make small changes when playing with the optimiser. In general, it is best to start as close as possible to the final design - especially for complex ones. Then to chose anchoring constants so the design stays close to this. As an example, many eyepieces have a very deep concave surface close to the image. If this is not made a constant, the optimiser very often leads one down the garden path. Another trick is to do the initial optimising with a reduced field, then increase it towards the end. The least satisfying aspect of using the optimiser is that it is more trial and error than true analysis. But, if the program has a good user interface, the speed at which this can be done and the visual grasp of changes in performance is such that the trial and error can be very usefully directed. James Bond would have killed for these facilities 50 years ago - and it was becoming available back then in the right circles. Abbe would have just thought it was a fairy story. If anyone has gone this far, I would suggest taking the Dall Kirkham variation and adding two plane parallel pieces of BK7 about 200 mm in front of the image. They can be seperated by a few mm and each be about 10 mm thick. Have as the variables the conic of the primary and every surface R. Leave as constants all spacings and the conic const of the sec. Use a reasonably wide field since this configuration can correct for a wide field quite well. Up to say 1 degree or more towards the end. Dont forget to generate a new merit function for the optimiser - especially after changing field. Run the optimiser. If you are lucky, the result will be a reasonable and quite interesting design. There are more than one possible promising design types here. To tie the optimiser down you will have to make constant some of the surface R values. For instance, the pieces of plane parallel glass will each assume meniscus shape. They can be either back to back or front to front to work reasonably and to explore each you may need to anchor one of these surfaces. In Zemax, one of the settable merit terms is the effective focal length (effl). I would also set this and leave one of the spacings floating. Dont know how to do that in OSLO but it would be worth finding out because this will be often used to stop the optimiser going crazy. If you want to play around with this basic design, there is an example on my web site called the DK11 meaning Dall Kirkham plus two single elements. Peter Smith. From bobmay@nethere.com Sat Dec 15 16:20:53 2001 Received: from lisa.nethere.net (lisa.nethere.net [216.188.38.14]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBFNKqU16531 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:20:52 -0700 Received: from p120 (dyn1-26.sndg-c5300-3.nethere.net [216.188.93.26]) by lisa.nethere.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA46884 for ; Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:20:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006801c185bf$276717c0$1a5dbcd8@p120> From: "Bob May" To: "raytrace" References: <4.2.2.20011214010842.00ad8e70@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Re: A useful sequence Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 15:20:57 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: One of the things that one optimizer function (in BEAM2) mentions is that if you have too many variables in action, you won't get a optimization of the design. In other words, you can't put the entire design into play as the optimizer will just chatter about. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay bobmay@nethere.com NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Sun Dec 16 13:38:42 2001 Received: from mta01bw.bigpond.com (mta01bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBGKcfU18313 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:38:42 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.24.69]) by mta01bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GOGEYL00.855 for ; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 06:44:45 +1000 Received: from CWPP-p-203-54-199-47.prem.tmns.net.au ([203.54.199.47]) by bwmam01.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0g 2/2300957); 17 Dec 2001 06:37:54 Message-ID: <002401c18671$89521950$2fc736cb@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "raytrace" References: <4.2.2.20011214010842.00ad8e70@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> <006801c185bf$276717c0$1a5dbcd8@p120> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:30:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [Raytrace] Some Optimiser strategies Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I really do not know how useful this is. There are so many diverse applications with different programs with different capabilities. Some will simply think this is simplistic - yet others may be lost. For that I apologise. Quite some thought should be given to the best way to constrain important parameters - yet allow many appropriate degrees of freedom during optimisation. I have found that with Zemax, convergence can be quite sensible and orderly with a large number of variables - as long as constraints and variables are well chosen. If it is easy and fast to experiment, do some trials. A lot of care must be taken when making spacings variable - one has to keep a tight reign. The real fools mate one will discover early on. Since better performance usually results as F:NO > infinity, if there are not sufficient restraints, the Focal length may > infinity as spacings change to suite. Some ways to constrain this are to specify an effective focal length or a key large spacing or possibly the ROC of a primary mirror. This happens to everyone. If this happens, just undo the change and consider more appropriate restraints. Since the thicknesses of lenses can become mathematically negative w.r.t. the light direction and still make sense to an optimiser, it is usually best to make these constants. (Note - if the light direction is in the negative sense, they should have a negative spacing. ) . Towards the end of a session, it may be appropriate to make lens thicknesses variables for short runs just to see whether they want to increase or decrease. When this has been established, change them again to constants of better values. But keep a watch to see they remain sensible A very powerful technique is to tie two spacings togeather - ie make one dependant on another. For example, It is possible to make the distance from primary to cass sec a variable and then force the distance from sec to image to be, say, -1.1 times this value. This is done by picking up a surface and supplying a multiplier. Another example could be applied to the DK11 design I talked about earlier. If the spacing from primary to sec is a variable, then the distance from sec to corrector set to -0.95 of this value, (ie just in front of the primary) and finally the spacing from last corrector surface to image set to 200 mm, the design is not overconstrained yet will not run away. When constraints on the R of surfaces are needed, it may be more useful to make one surface dependent on another rather than a constant. For example,it is difficult for an equiconvex or equiconcave lens to run amok during optimising. To constrain a lens to be equiconvex simply pick up the R of the previous surface and modify it by using a multiplier of -1. Then, as the design progresses, remove other variables but then make both R values of this lens independent variables and reoptimise. All this sounds messy. But remember than any optical design is a compromise anyway. Often far more of a compromise than we realize. Peter Smith. From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 21 13:31:17 2001 Received: from popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (popa.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.244.174]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBLKVGU11295 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:31:16 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBLKUN902414 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:30:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011221004600.00ae2d80@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:19:18 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] A real world application Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: If anyone is interested, I have a real world problem for which I'd appreciate community input. In the current work I'm doing we are producing a dozen or so lightweight composite mirrors. These are all 20" diameter, f/1.9, spherical mirrors. (Some of you may have seen the one I showed at Stellafane last year). I would like to build a couple of simple minded telescopes out of these mirrors for making portable scopes to observe point sources (= stars). The primary being spherical, the best that can be done in a two mirror system is to make a inverse Dall-Kirkham (or Pressman-Carmichael, Rutten's terminology). The secondary is a convex spheroid. This is a zero field system. The image is a spot only on the optical axis. I've added a diagonal flat for finding a target in the field. The system requirements are as follows: Primary - 20 in diameter, 76 in. ROC, sphere Secondary - 4 in diameter (to reduce fabrication cost, actually any size up to 6 inch is ok) Diagonal flat - to be located 2 inch in front of primary, for ease of mounting Focus - 13 in. above optical axis (to accommodate focuser) Running these numbers through Rutten and van Venrooij's TDesign program, I got a set of preliminary numbers. I then put them into Zemax and OSLO to check out the design and try some optimization. So far the best I can get is something like the following: (OSLO format) *LENS DATA 20 inch inverse dall-kirkham SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+17 AIR 1 -- 772.160000 50.000000 X AIR AST -1.9304e+03 -772.160000 254.000000 AKX REFLECT 3 -- 721.360000 50.800000 REFLECT * 4 -- -- -- AIR * 5 -- -- 22.779000 REFLECT 6 -- -330.200000 -- AIR * IMS -- -- 6.000000 *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 3 8.959129 -- -- -- -- *TILT/DECENTER DATA 4 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -- DCZ -- TLA -45.000000 TLB -- TLC -- 6 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -- DCZ -- TLA -45.000000 TLB -- TLC -- The problems are: 1. It doesn't focus to a spot, even on axis. The secondary roc doesn't seem quite right. 2. I have no idea how difficult it would be to make a spheroid with a conic constant of 8.959129. Is that realistic? How does one test such a piece? (note: The piece will be concave. We replicate with it and get the convex part). : Does anyone have any suggestions? Happy Holidays, all. Regards, P.C. Chen From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Sat Dec 22 11:52:31 2001 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBMIqVU13048 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 11:52:31 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-001ilurbap109.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.69] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16HrF4-0007B3-00; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:51:31 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011222113348.00a361f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 12:50:14 -0600 To: Peter Chen , From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] A real world application In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20011221004600.00ae2d80@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 01:19 12/21/2001 -0500, Peter Chen wrote: > The primary being spherical, the best that can be done in a two > mirror system is to make a inverse Dall-Kirkham (or Pressman-Carmichael, > Rutten's terminology). The secondary is a convex spheroid. This is a > zero field system. The image is a spot only on the optical axis. I've > added a diagonal flat for finding a target in the field. Someone corrected me once for inadvertently anglicizing this name, so I'll do the same. It's Pressmann-Camichel. Wilson calls these spherical primary telescopes; for some reason he decided not to give the designers credit (or blame) for this one. > The system requirements are as follows: >Primary - 20 in diameter, 76 in. ROC, sphere >Secondary - 4 in diameter (to reduce fabrication cost, actually any size >up to 6 inch is ok) >Diagonal flat - to be located 2 inch in front of primary, for ease of >mounting >Focus - 13 in. above optical axis (to accommodate focuser) This is actually a more difficult design (and probably fabrication) problem than you may have thought. It's also probably outside the scope of ATM projects, but since there doesn't seem to be much list traffic right now any question has to be considered "frequently asked." >The problems are: > 1. It doesn't focus to a spot, even on axis. The secondary roc > doesn't seem quite right. > 2. I have no idea how difficult it would be to make a spheroid with > a conic constant of 8.959129. Is that realistic? How does one test such > a piece? (note: The piece will be concave. We replicate with it and > get the convex part). > >: Does anyone have any suggestions? Personally I prefer to use a spreadsheet for preliminary cassegrain design, then fiddle it in OSLO as needed. The version of my cassegrain design spreadsheet on my web page doesn't do spherical primaries, but I added a line to my local copy. I see two likely errors in your layout. First, it appears you made your secondary a flat. I reverse engineered your probable intended configuration and came up with a secondary radius of curvature of -472.89mm, which produces a system focal ratio of f/10.35 or a secondary magnification of -5.447. The second probable error I see is that my spreadsheet returns a conic constant of 7.086, which is still highly oblate. Plugging those numbers into OSLO I still get lousy results: after refocusing I get a P-V error of over 2.7 waves. What gives? Well, I solved to eliminate 3rd order spherical aberration, but this system has a huge amount of residual 5th and even 7th order spherical. In order to get good performance you're going to have to make your secondary a higher order asphere. OSLO has several ways to set up a general high order aspheric surface. I picked the simplest one, which it calls a "standard asphere." I don't know how to solve for higher order aspheric coefficients by hand, so I used OSLO's default optimization method (they call it GENII) and defined the secondary conic constant and 6th and 8th order aspheric coefficients as variables. Here's the system specification that OSLO returns (I've omitted the tertiary flat): *LENS DATA No name SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR AST -1.9304e+03 -772.160000 254.000000 AS REFLECT 2 -472.890000 772.160000 P 50.800772 S REFLECT * 3 -- 279.408778 S 13.501962 S AIR 4 -- -- 0.005258 S AIR IMS -- -- 0.005258 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 2 7.092349 -- -9.6589e-14 -1.2996e-17 -- As specified OSLO tells me P-V error is about 0.004 wave. You could actually, probably, get away with a 6th order asphere, but P-V would only be about 0.11 wave. I don't think many ATMs would care to tackle a fairly steeply curved convex oblate spheroid with an 8th order correction. Depending on what kind of resources you have available at NASA you might be able to make one, but I doubt the opticians who work on it would thank you. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Sun Dec 23 06:55:26 2001 Received: from mta01bw.bigpond.com (mta01bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBNDtOU14608 for ; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 06:55:25 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.24.72]) by mta01bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GOSUY500.294 for ; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 00:01:17 +1000 Received: from 144.138.93.161 ([144.138.93.161]) by bwmam02.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 11/2158141); 23 Dec 2001 23:54:18 Message-ID: <003e01c18bb8$3d52bb80$a15d8a90@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "raytrace" References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011222113348.00a361f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] A real world application Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:25:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Re the Pressmann-Camichel Peter Chen would like. I once looked at the Pressmann-Camichel and left this design with the feeling that it had little to offer. One thing that I discovered was that for a pure conic to work on the secondary, the image position was very limited. Below is a design that I did but I must still echo Michael Peck's thoughts that its nearly undoable, even for pros. as the conic on the sec is very extreme. And of course, it has almost no useable field outside the paraxial zone. I think the position of the image in this example (just in front of the primary) may be acceptable if a small CCD is used. ========================================= Effective Focal Length : 2130.686 (in air) SURFACE DATA SUMMARY: Surf Type Radius Thickness Glass Diameter Conic OBJ STANDARD Infinity Infinity 0 0 STO STANDARD -1950.72 -682.3888 MIRROR 508.029 0 2 STANDARD -1080.612 640 MIRROR 151.9112 13.6537 IMA STANDARD Infinity 3.998507 0 I see that the image is for a field of 0.05 degrees but the results off axis are essentially unuseable. ======================================== In general, I have found that making a success of a spherical primary is very difficult without either very wide or very complex corrective optics. Here is a Cass type design using all spherical surfaces which is of some interest. It is a 1 m scope, uses a mangin secondary which is an equiconcave "lens" before it is silvered on one side so it can be tested as two convex surfaces, then a 200 mm diam corrective meniscus lens about half way back to the primary, finally another small concave corrective lens 250 mm in front of the image. I think it will just fit into OSLO LT. All glass is BK7 and as stated all surfaces are spherical. Although the field is 60 mm across, it is too curved for flat film of this size. I think the design quite interesting, especially as it uses all BK7 but its certainly not a simple ATM scope, not entirely sensible. Which illustrates what I said about Spherical Primaries. To correct them without large diameter surfaces gets messy. If anyone has interesting solutions using sub diameter correctors I am all ears. Maybe someone might like to examine or even build on this design. ================================== System/Prescription Data File : C:\usr\lenses\ByDate\01\01July\SphericalPrimary\Mangin\a4.ZMX Effective Focal Length : 7000 (in air) Image Space F/# : 7 Fields : 4 Field Type: Angle in degrees # X-Value Y-Value Weight 1 0.000000 0.000000 1.000000 2 0.000000 0.080000 1.000000 3 0.000000 0.160000 1.000000 4 0.000000 0.250000 1.000000 Wavelengths : 5 Units: Microns # Value Weight 1 0.470000 0.091000 2 0.510000 0.503000 3 0.555000 1.000000 4 0.610000 0.503000 5 0.650000 0.107000 SURFACE DATA SUMMARY: Surf Type Radius Thickness Glass Diameter Conic OBJ STANDARD Infinity Infinity 0 0 STO STANDARD -6600 -2199.759 MIRROR 1000.166 0 2 STANDARD 6727.12 -15 BK7 353.498 0 3 STANDARD -6727.12 15 MIRROR 350.067 0 4 STANDARD 6727.12 850 348.6887 0 5 STANDARD 579.9506 22 BK7 279.2098 0 6 STANDARD 2133.934 765.1582 277.1144 0 7 STANDARD 265.5515 8 BK7 71.22697 0 8 STANDARD 96.5718 250 68.05869 0 IMA STANDARD 495.3182 61.73862 0 ============================================== Surface 2, 3, and 4 represents the Mangin secondary. This can be a real source of programming errors. In Zemax, it is not necessary to specify that the glass type between surf 3 and 4 is actually a return path through the BK7. I think other raytracers may have a different protocol so beware. If you have never entered a design like this it may be an interesting exercise. Have fun Peter Smith. From mayen1@mwt.net Wed Dec 26 15:56:15 2001 Received: from westbyserver.mwt.net (westbyserver.mwt.net [207.190.94.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBQMuEU21909 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:56:14 -0700 Received: from mwt.net (pm3-4-223.lavalle.mwt.net [207.190.68.223]) by westbyserver.mwt.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fBQMt3915688 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:55:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C2A55AD.4BFE0187@mwt.net> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:56:45 -0600 From: Joe Mayenschein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Raytrace!" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Project Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi All, Well, I have a thought for a project scope. Chuck hards, alerted it to me and it shows some huge promise. But I don't have a clue as to where to start on the thing. I made up a web page with some very badly drawn pictures showing what I'm thinking of trying. Any of you want to try crunching some designs and see what comes out? Spot diagrams and all that kinds of stuff.. the details are on the web page at. http://www.qsl.net/wb9sbd/path.html What you all think? Joe From klowther@cisnet.com Wed Dec 26 16:00:10 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBQN0AU22731 for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:00:10 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4147.cisnet.com [207.17.248.147]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:59:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3C2A5670.F82D29F8@cisnet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:00:00 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] upgrade test Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I have just upgraded the mailman software and I want to see if I broke anything. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Dec 28 16:57:12 2001 Received: from popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (popa.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.244.174]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBSNvCU27330 for ; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:57:12 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fBSNuC912238; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:56:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011228173849.00c15100@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:10:49 -0500 To: Michael Peck From: Peter Chen Subject: Re: [Raytrace] A real world application Cc: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011222113348.00a361f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <4.2.2.20011221004600.00ae2d80@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi Mike: Many thanks for checking out and critiquing my spherical mirror design. >Someone corrected me once for inadvertently anglicizing this name, so I'll >do the same. It's Pressmann-Camichel Any idea who those folks are? I have never come across any reference to these names except in Rutten and van Venrooij. >Plugging those numbers into OSLO I still get lousy results: after refocusing I> get a P-V error of over 2.7 waves. What gives? Well, I solved to >eliminate 3rd order spherical aberration, but this system has a huge >amount of residual 5th and even 7th order spherical. In order to get good >performance you're going to have to make your secondary a higher order >asphere. I plugged your design into Zemax. I noticed that the spot diagram is fairly big, consisting of a several micron spot with a faint outer ring. This persists even after optimization. I puzzled over the cause of the ring. My guess is it must be caused by those high order spherical aberrations that you mentioned. >It's also probably outside the scope of ATM projects, >I don't think many ATMs would care to tackle a fairly steeply curved >convex oblate spheroid with an 8th order correction. I agree this is definitely not main stream ATM stuff at the moment. However, I submit that: 1. The ATM community is a huge pool of people and expertise. I don't know that anything is outside the scope. Two examples: a. I understand that some ATMs are making 40" and 72" scopes. Definitely not main stream either. b. Raytracing is an activity normally done by highly trained professionals. I suspect that giving a talk on raytracing at a standard star party -or even at Stellafane or Riverside- would likely lose (or frighten away) a large part of the audience. However, you yourself and Peter Smith and others on this list are experts on the subject -- and doing it for fun! I rest my case. -:) smile. 2. Spherical mirrors are a rarity at the moment. However, most of the designs for very large telescopes of the future use spherical primary mirrors for reasons of affordability. I think it quite possible that, once some of these humengous beasts have been built and proven in use, there will be ATMs who'll want to try out similar ideas. Thanks for the discussion. Wishing you and everyone on the list a Happy New Year. Regards, P.C. Chen At 01:50 PM 12/22/01 , you wrote: >At 01:19 12/21/2001 -0500, Peter Chen wrote: >> The primary being spherical, the best that can be done in a two >> mirror system is to make a inverse Dall-Kirkham (or Pressman-Carmichael, >> Rutten's terminology). The secondary is a convex spheroid. This is a >> zero field system. The image is a spot only on the optical axis. I've >> added a diagonal flat for finding a target in the field. > >Someone corrected me once for inadvertently anglicizing this name, so I'll >do the same. It's Pressmann-Camichel. Wilson calls these spherical primary >telescopes; for some reason he decided not to give the designers credit >(or blame) for this one. > >> The system requirements are as follows: >>Primary - 20 in diameter, 76 in. ROC, sphere >>Secondary - 4 in diameter (to reduce fabrication cost, actually any size >>up to 6 inch is ok) >>Diagonal flat - to be located 2 inch in front of primary, for ease of >>mounting >>Focus - 13 in. above optical axis (to accommodate focuser) > >This is actually a more difficult design (and probably fabrication) >problem than you may have thought. It's also probably outside the scope of >ATM projects, but since there doesn't seem to be much list traffic right >now any question has to be considered "frequently asked." > >>The problems are: >> 1. It doesn't focus to a spot, even on axis. The secondary roc >> doesn't seem quite right. >> 2. I have no idea how difficult it would be to make a spheroid >> with a conic constant of 8.959129. Is that realistic? How does one >> test such a piece? (note: The piece will be concave. We replicate >> with it and get the convex part). >> >>: Does anyone have any suggestions? > >Personally I prefer to use a spreadsheet for preliminary cassegrain >design, then fiddle it in OSLO as needed. The version of my cassegrain >design spreadsheet on my web page doesn't do spherical primaries, but I >added a line to my local copy. > >I see two likely errors in your layout. First, it appears you made your >secondary a flat. I reverse engineered your probable intended >configuration and came up with a secondary radius of curvature of >-472.89mm, which produces a system focal ratio of f/10.35 or a secondary >magnification of -5.447. The second probable error I see is that my >spreadsheet returns a conic constant of 7.086, which is still highly oblate. > >Plugging those numbers into OSLO I still get lousy results: after >refocusing I get a P-V error of over 2.7 waves. What gives? Well, I solved >to eliminate 3rd order spherical aberration, but this system has a huge >amount of residual 5th and even 7th order spherical. In order to get good >performance you're going to have to make your secondary a higher order asphere. > >OSLO has several ways to set up a general high order aspheric surface. I >picked the simplest one, which it calls a "standard asphere." I don't know >how to solve for higher order aspheric coefficients by hand, so I used >OSLO's default optimization method (they call it GENII) and defined the >secondary conic constant and 6th and 8th order aspheric coefficients as >variables. Here's the system specification that OSLO returns (I've omitted >the tertiary flat): > > >*LENS DATA >No name > SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE > OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.0000e+14 AIR > > AST -1.9304e+03 -772.160000 254.000000 AS REFLECT > > 2 -472.890000 772.160000 P 50.800772 S REFLECT * > > 3 -- 279.408778 S 13.501962 S AIR > > 4 -- -- 0.005258 S AIR > > IMS -- -- 0.005258 S > >*CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA > SRF CC AD AE AF AG > 2 7.092349 -- -9.6589e-14 -1.2996e-17 -- > >As specified OSLO tells me P-V error is about 0.004 wave. You could >actually, probably, get away with a 6th order asphere, but P-V would only >be about 0.11 wave. > >I don't think many ATMs would care to tackle a fairly steeply curved >convex oblate spheroid with an 8th order correction. Depending on what >kind of resources you have available at NASA you might be able to make >one, but I doubt the opticians who work on it would thank you. > >Mike Peck > >_________________ > >Michael Peck >email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com >Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html >Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html > From bolenb@pacbell.net Sat Dec 29 10:31:11 2001 Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBTHVBU28747 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:31:11 -0700 Received: from jgoins ([206.170.4.187]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GP4003Q98LYVN@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:29:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:31:20 -0800 From: Joseph Goins To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Reply-to: Joseph Goins Message-id: <001f01c1908e$a1a3b1e0$bb04aace@jgoins> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1904B.92CF7160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Subject: [Raytrace] Snow White & 7 Dwarves virus. Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1904B.92CF7160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although I did not open the email, it seems to be going around and I = can't tell if it came from one of the list or not. Just a quick = warning. Joseph B. Goins 1091 Harness Circle #1 San Ramon, CA 94583 (925) 277-1351 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1904B.92CF7160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Although I did not open the email, it = seems to be=20 going around and I can't tell if it came from one of the list or = not.  Just=20 a quick warning.
 
Joseph B. Goins
1091 Harness Circle = #1
San=20 Ramon, CA 94583
(925) 277-1351
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C1904B.92CF7160-- From klowther@cisnet.com Sat Dec 29 17:50:12 2001 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBU0oCU29392 for ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:50:12 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4148.cisnet.com [207.17.248.148]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id ; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:48:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3C2E64B5.BB1FAF50@cisnet.com> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:49:57 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rimassimo@tiscalinet.it, raytrace Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Ray Tracing software Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Massimo. We recently set up a new email list for people interested in learning how to use ray tracing software. For many of us, it just isn't intuitive. I don't know if you are still on the ATM list and saw the message from when it was created. You can check to see where we stand by visiting the list archives. We are just getting started. http://www.atmsite.org/pipermail/raytrace/ Please consider joining the list by clicking on the last url in my sig. Hopefully it will be mutually beneficial to all. :-) -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 30 10:29:43 2001 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBUHThU30733 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:29:43 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap233.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.249] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Kjl3-0003JF-00; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:28:25 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011230075212.00a3da20@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:08:57 -0600 To: Peter Chen From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] A real world application Cc: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20011228173849.00c15100@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011222113348.00a361f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> <4.2.2.20011221004600.00ae2d80@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 18:10 12/28/2001 -0500, Peter Chen wrote: >Pressmann-Camichel > > Any idea who those folks are? I have never come across any > reference to these names except in Rutten and van Venrooij. Peter (& group): I'm going to split this into two responses. Henri Camichel was a modestly renowned French astronomer (20th century). A Google search turns up a fair amount of biographical information on the web, none of which say anything about his work as a telescope designer. Must have been a casual hobby. I assume this is the right Camichel. I have nothing on Pressmann. > I plugged your design into Zemax. I noticed that the spot diagram > is fairly big, consisting of a several micron spot with a faint outer > ring. This persists even after optimization. I puzzled over the cause > of the ring. My guess is it must be caused by those high order spherical > aberrations that you mentioned. Is that with or without the high order asphere coefficients? Without them this design is definitely well short of diffraction limited. One possible problem is that OSLO gives you about a half dozen menu choices for setting up a generalized asphere. Zemax probably has more than that, and it's entirely possible a Zemax prescription will look completely different from an OSLO one. If Peter Smith is willing and you're still interested maybe we can figure out how to reconcile a Zemax design with the one I provided from OSLO and move on from there. And yes, a geometric spot diagram that has a tight core with rays scattered much farther out can be a sign of uncorrected high order aberrations. There are better diagnostics than geometric spot diagrams though. I like to look at ray fan plots, OPD curves, or longitudinal spherical aberration plots. OSLO has a taskbar button that plots several useful pieces of information in a single multi-paned window. They call it a "ray intercept curves analysis". Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Sun Dec 30 10:29:44 2001 Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fBUHTiU30737 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:29:44 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap233.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.249] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Kjl6-0003JF-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:28:28 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20011230100903.00a40bb0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:23:07 -0600 To: From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] A real world application In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20011228173849.00c15100@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011222113348.00a361f0@popd.ix.netcom.com> <4.2.2.20011221004600.00ae2d80@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 18:10 12/28/2001 -0500, Peter Chen wrote: >outside the scope. Two examples: > a. I understand that some ATMs are making 40" and 72" > scopes. Definitely not main stream either. Lord Rosse - who was basically just a well-heeled amateur astronomer - made a 72" telescope that he finished in 1845. It took him a lot less time than the group that's currently trying to make one too. Some things never change, and I expect 160 years from now amateurs with incurable cases of aperture fever will still be trying to make meter+ newtonian telescopes. >(or frighten away) a large part of the audience. However, you yourself >and Peter Smith and others on this list are experts on the subject -- and >doing it for fun! I rest my case. -:) smile. Peter may be an expert, but I'm sure not! What I've got is a modicum of curiosity, a modest library of books (*), and a piece of free software that's reasonably competent & has a shallow enough learning curve that I can do stuff without making a career out of it. Curiosity is the main prerequisite for this, and tolerably easy to use software is a big help too. There are other powerful software products out there (Synopsis and Roadrunner come to mind) that force you to learn a scripting language and the authors' idiosyncratic notions of how to do optical design that I just don't have the patience to try learning. >2. Spherical mirrors are a rarity at the moment. However, most of the >designs for very large telescopes of the future use spherical primary >mirrors for reasons of affordability. I think it quite Well, SCT's - which I think after import refractors are the most commonly owned telescope design - have spherical primaries, so spherical mirrors aren't at all rare. In an all reflective design I think you need at least 4 powered mirrors to allow a spherical primary and still get good off-axis performance. I don't foresee ATMs wanting to step up to 4 mirror designs any time soon, and there's really no need to in amateur size telescopes since it's easier and cheaper to add refractive elements if needed. (*) Here's an FAQ item. Books! What do list members own and recommend? My list is a short one. I think Rutten & van Venrooij and both volumes of Wilson's "Reflecting Telescope Optics" are indispensable to the amateur telescope designer (I swiped that phrase from someone on the ATM list). Some people might be put off by a book that has a 260 page chapter with over 500 numbered equations in it, but there's plenty of material besides the math in both volumes. It's also extremely well edited, which is a rarity these days even for technical books. That's about it. Schroeder's "Astronomical Optics" is worthwhile too (I prefer the 2000 2nd edition), but it's not as comprehensive as Wilson and is written more as a textbook. I have yet to find a book on optical theory or general optical engineering that I consider a must own. Professional optical designers swear by Warren Smith's "Modern Optical Engineering" and I may get around to investing in it sometime (any thoughts?). I was a little disappointed by the Willmann-Bell book "Practical computer-aided lens design" by G.H. Smith, but it does have some useful material on interpreting the output of computer programs. I've got a few other books in my personal optics library but Wilson is the one I turn to most often. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wed Jan 16 09:16:49 2002 Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0GGGnU31718 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:16:49 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap285.dialsprint.net ([158.252.112.215] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Qsi7-0004J6-00; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 11:14:47 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020116091028.00a30090@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:14:25 -0600 To: ATM@Shore.net, raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck In-Reply-To: <3C44F2E1.2AD52D8F@mwt.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20020115133143.007d0100@pvtnetworks.net> <3C44C366.285989A5@mwt.net> <003601c19e2d$4e5b2e80$06a7fea9@FrankWard> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Re: ATM 16" F/33 valid design? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 21:26 1/15/2002 -0600, Joe Mayenschein wrote: >I agree f-70 would be crazy,, that's where I was hoping some of the ray trace >guru's could play with it some. See with that say 10" f-6 primary, how >"Fast" >you could make it with simple "Edmund" Specials lenses used as the convex >secondaries (spherical of course) how fast (low of a f- ratio) can it go >before > > > {snip} > > > Please check out the below page of a project of a EXTREME long F-Ratio > > > scope I was thinking of trying. what's everyone think? > > > > > > http://www.qsl.net/wb9sbd/path.html I'm going to crosspost this to the raytrace list for the sake of generating some traffic there. I've set up one example for you, ignoring the flats. The particular example I tried has a 250mm f/6 primary, secondary magnification of 10 and paraxial focus (for the straightened out light cone) at the primary vertex. With those parameters your cassegrain secondary would end up positioned about 136mm from primary focus (probably farther away than you want it judging from your diagram), the required diameter would be just about an inch, and the radius of curvature about -303mm. If you wanted the secondary positioned closer to prime focus you'd need either to make the secondary magnification larger or move the cassegrain focus forward (or both). One thing that surprised me a little bit is that you could leave the secondary spherical with a secondary magnification as low as 10 and still get diffraction limited performance. In fact you'd be diffraction limited over an entire 2" diameter field, with a P-V wavefront error on axis just slightly better than 0.1 wave, deteriorating to 0.2 wave at the edge (note to those who object to P-V errors: the axial wavefront error is all 3rd order spherical aberration). With a system focal length of 15000mm the maximum angular field available with a 2" eyepiece would be about 11 arc-minutes, and the magnification with a 55mm eyepiece (the practical minimum) would be 270x. To answer the question posed on the web page, changing the secondary spacing would have some zoom effect, and a huge effect on the position of the focal plane. Decreasing the primary-secondary distance by 1mm would move the position of best focus out by about 113mm and change the effective system focal ratio to about f/64. This seems like more of a problem than an opportunity to me, since it means you're going to have to pay special attention to maintaining repeatability of secondary position and focus will still tend to wander significantly during the course of a night. Anyway, with the caution that I haven't considered the flats I'd say that a design like this might be feasible. I wouldn't say it's a good idea. The one potentially sensible application I can see for this would be if you wanted to do diffraction limited ccd imaging of small, bright targets (i.e. planets). If I wanted to undertake a program like that I'd just dedicate a telescope to that purpose and forget about convertibility. If you do that you can make it a DK cass, which with this extreme focal ratio would be nearly indistinguishable from an aplanatic design. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From bobmay@nethere.com Wed Jan 16 10:59:24 2002 Received: from lisa.nethere.net (lisa.nethere.net [216.188.38.14]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0GHxNU31876 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:59:23 -0700 Received: from p120 (dyn1-22.sndg-c5300-3.nethere.net [216.188.93.22]) by lisa.nethere.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28016 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:57:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001d01c19eb7$69eb0be0$165dbcd8@p120> From: "Bob May" To: "raytrace" References: <3.0.6.32.20020115133143.007d0100@pvtnetworks.net><3C44C366.285989A5@mwt.net><003601c19e2d$4e5b2e80$06a7fea9@FrankWard> <5.0.2.1.0.20020116091028.00a30090@popd.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Re: ATM 16" F/33 valid design? Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 09:58:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Mike, I tried a quick design in Optics Lab and had a -100mm secondary 90mm from the focal point of the primary. The performance was diffraction limited (all rays were within the Airy disk) over a 2"+ diameter. Strell degraded from .90 to .89 from the 0deg. to .1deg. incoming angle. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay bobmay@nethere.com NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 17 08:55:37 2002 Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0HFtaU01235 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 08:55:36 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap326.dialsprint.net ([158.252.112.232] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16REr9-0007qd-00 for Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:53:36 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020117094917.00a37940@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 09:51:49 -0600 To: "raytrace" From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Re: ATM 16" F/33 valid design? In-Reply-To: <001d01c19eb7$69eb0be0$165dbcd8@p120> References: <3.0.6.32.20020115133143.007d0100@pvtnetworks.net> <3C44C366.285989A5@mwt.net> <003601c19e2d$4e5b2e80$06a7fea9@FrankWard> <5.0.2.1.0.20020116091028.00a30090@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 09:58 1/16/2002 -0800, Bob May wrote: >Mike, I tried a quick design in Optics Lab and had a -100mm secondary 90mm >from the focal point of the primary. The performance was diffraction >limited (all rays were within the Airy disk) over a 2"+ diameter. Strell Yeah, OSLO says that will work too. Of course there's a whole range of possibilities that might more or less meet Joe's design criteria. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From JulesFran@aol.com Thu Jan 17 17:24:27 2002 Received: from imo-r05.mx.aol.com (imo-r05.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.101]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0I0ORU02032 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:24:27 -0700 Received: from JulesFran@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.25.) id 4.da.124d4696 (4468) for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:22:16 -0500 (EST) From: JulesFran@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:22:16 EST To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Subject: [Raytrace] TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hello list, I'm new to this list and have a few questions: Has anyone modeled a four mirror TCT design with OSLO Lt? I would like to use this as a starting point to evaluate a few designs I have been playing with. Up til now I've been using David Stevick's software which is wonderfully simple to use but doesn't have the horsepower I need to go to the next level. Has anyone modeled a mirror profile using Zernike polynomials for input into a raytrace program? What I would like to do is use the actual test results from a mirror profile analysis and use this to evaluate the system Strehl ratio of a final "as built" TCT. Regards, John Francis From jhavens@flanderselectric.com Thu Jan 17 14:24:33 2002 Received: from proxy.flanderselectric.com (fe-1.networkwcs.net [208.202.238.3]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0HLOWU01701 for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:24:33 -0700 Received: from JimH ([192.9.200.40]) by proxy.flanderselectric.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-64131U1000L100S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:28:49 -0600 From: "Jim Havens" To: Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:22:47 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Subject: [Raytrace] Waineo Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Just trying to learn Oslo LT. Can someone help me set it up to calculate spacing for the Waineo Null? An example setup would be: Pinhole (fiber optic pointing to user's right toward sphere) diameter .010 Reference sphere (facing left) Dia = 12.5" Reference sphere RC=132.72" Knife edge is 7" behind surface of sphere Paraboloid (facing right) Dia = 17.5" Paraboloid RC= 157.37" I tried Beam III years ago and never got the same results as the DOS software gave me. Thanks, Jim Havens From jd-upton@texas.net Fri Jan 18 11:38:04 2002 Received: from mg03.austin.ibm.com (mg03.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.20]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0IIc3U03514 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:38:03 -0700 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail1.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.138]) by mg03.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA45610; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:33:19 -0600 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA101502; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:35:57 -0600 Received: from UPTON.texas.net (upton.austin.ibm.com [9.53.68.105]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id MAA25770; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:35:55 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20020118104421.00ca6bc0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 12:35:27 -0600 To: "Jim Havens" From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Waineo Null Cc: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Jim, At 03:22 PM 1/17/02 -0600, you wrote: >Just trying to learn Oslo LT. Can someone help me set it up to calculate >spacing for the Waineo Null? An example setup would be: > >Pinhole (fiber optic pointing to user's right toward sphere) diameter .010 >Reference sphere (facing left) Dia = 12.5" >Reference sphere RC=132.72" >Knife edge is 7" behind surface of sphere >Paraboloid (facing right) Dia = 17.5" >Paraboloid RC= 157.37" I had never tried to work out the Waineo Null Test in OLSO before, so this was something of a trial and error (mostly error) exercise to get approximate initial spacings. I only vaguely recalled the setup, but I entered the information you gave in your note. I have no idea if this is a correct setup. At least I got some results that looked reasonable. I used a monochromatic source of 546 nM wavelength. I optimized the setup for minimizing total spherical aberration. I also played with the spacings to try to get close to your requirement that the knife edge be 7" behind the reference surface. (Everyone, please forgive me for continuing to use English units. I tend to work in the units originally specified. This brings up a point about OSLO-LT 6.x vs. OSLO-LT 5.4. In addition to supporting fewer surfaces, they also removed the "scale" command which made it very simple to switch between units once the design was entered. That is only one of several reasons I keep both versions installed on my system.) Now, back to the task at and... The setup says that the 12.5" reference sphere is large enough -- only an 11" element is required to cover your 17.5" mirror. The optical fiber source needs to be set just under 48" from the reference sphere and the spacing from reference sphere to your mirror is about 103". This set of values gives a knife edge position of about 7" as requested. Here is the setup in human-readable form: *LENS DATA No name SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 47.998151 V 0.005000 AIR AST -132.720000 -102.950000 5.484369 AS REFL_HATCH 2 157.370000 109.996872 S 8.750000 S REFL_HATCH * IMS -- 0.000417 0.007224 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 2 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- After refocusing for minimum on-axis RMS OPD error, the results said that the best residual P-V error was better than 1/100 wave (at the wavefront) with an RMS error of about 0.002. The Strehl ratio was reported to be 0.999+. If I did the setup correctly, it looks like a very good null for this mirror. *WAVEFRONT RS WAVELENGTH 1 PKVAL OPD RMS OPD STREHL RATIO RSY RSX RSZ 0.008762 0.002133 0.999813 -- -- -- If anyone finds errors in what I did, please point them out. I am still learning this stuff, too. If there are other setups which might satisfy the general requirements Jim stated, let's see them also. If anyone would like to play with the OSLO file, here it is in text form. Just cut out the lines between the "Cut Here" lines and paste them into a text file which you can then rename "WaineoNull.len". That file should then read into OSLO okay. ==================== Cut Here ======================= // OSLO 6.04 3087 49397 53247 LEN NEW "Waineo Null" 124.04 3 NAO 0.1135234203395 OBH -0.005 DES "OSLO" UNI 25.4 SNO1 "17.5\" mirror with 12.5\" reference sphere." // SRF 0 AIR TH 47.9981512511403 AP 0.005 NXT // SRF 1 RFH RD -132.72 TH -102.95 NXT // SRF 2 RFH RD 157.37 PY 0.0 CC -1.0 NXT // SRF 3 AIR TH 0.0004167548447 WV 0.546 WW 1.0 END 3 DLRS 3 OPDF 1.0e-08 OPOC "*opabrs" VAR NEW V 1 0 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0005484368988 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM41" 1.0 "" END ==================== Cut Here ======================= Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Fri Jan 18 15:49:49 2002 Received: from oflmta01bw.bigpond.com (oflmta01bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.21] (may be forged)) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0IMnkU03874 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:49:47 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.24.84]) by oflmta01bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GQ5OZ100.JX0 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:54:37 +1000 Received: from prem-p-144-134-72-7.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.134.72.7]) by bwmam06.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 47/6245052); 19 Jan 2002 08:47:31 Message-ID: <00f901c1a072$1c5171a0$da5d8a90@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "raytrace" References: <4.3.1.0.20020118104421.00ca6bc0@mail.texas.net> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Waineo Null Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 08:45:39 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John D. Upton wrote about this particular configuration of the 'Waineo' test. >Pinhole (fiber optic pointing to user's right toward sphere) diameter .010 >Reference sphere (facing left) Dia = 12.5" >Reference sphere RC=132.72" >Knife edge is 7" behind surface of sphere >Paraboloid (facing right) Dia = 17.5" >Paraboloid RC= 157.37" > The setup says that the 12.5" reference sphere is large enough -- only > an 11" element is required to cover your 17.5" mirror. The optical fiber > source needs to be set just under 48" from the reference sphere and the > spacing from reference sphere to your mirror is about 103". This set of > values gives a knife edge position of about 7" as requested. > > Here is the setup in human-readable form: > > *LENS DATA > No name > SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE > OBJ -- 47.998151 V 0.005000 AIR > AST -132.720000 -102.950000 5.484369 AS REFL_HATCH > 2 157.370000 109.996872 S 8.750000 S REFL_HATCH * > IMS -- 0.000417 0.007224 S > > *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA > SRF CC AD AE AF AG > 2 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- > that the best residual P-V error was better than 1/100 wave (at the You can rest assured that it is correct. Zemax confirms the PV error is very close to 1/100 wave (on the wavefront emerging from the Parabola in the test setup). With software like OSLO around tests like these become readily available. But I fear that ATM's will never really take advantage of null testing I have never used the test but know someone who has and he is very happy. He did a tolerance analysis as well to see what figuring errors might result from spacing errors. Which would be a good exercise to do on this configuration. If anyone wants to play with a variety of nulls all aimed at possible ways to figure Cass secondaries, see my web site then go to page 13 - see below Somewhere in that article I mentioned the 'Waineo' null test in passing on to variants. I specifically did NOT call it a Waineo test because it was around long before Tom Waineo commendably tried to educate the ATM movement about it. Maybe this was counterproductive on my part because people probably recogmise it more easily under this name. And it would seem that Tom was a really nice guy. But the ATM world is insular enough as it is. On the other hand, I dont really know what it should be called so maybe calling it the Waineo test is reasonable........ I would really love to try this test myself. Maybe the next project in line....... Peter Smith. . From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Jan 18 16:08:12 2002 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0IN8CU03922 for ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:08:12 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4162.cisnet.com [207.17.248.162]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3C48AAB3.DD0CA03@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:07:31 -0500 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-26mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter John Smith CC: raytrace Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Waineo Null References: <4.3.1.0.20020118104421.00ca6bc0@mail.texas.net> <00f901c1a072$1c5171a0$da5d8a90@yourte6r9bjnhd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter John Smith wrote: > > > With software like OSLO around tests like these become readily available. > But I fear that ATM's will never really take advantage of null testing > I have comptemplated it, but don't do enough mirrors to move away from the Foucault test. Plus it has something to do with the way I figure. I graph each step of figuring using a spread sheet. This allows me to 'watch' the profile and see how it is changing in reference to that dreaded/oft malaigned tolerance envelope. I guess I could see using the null and a final 'collaborating' test, but that would be about it. But then again, I may just not understand it enough to know how it would help me during figuring. Geez. It has to be either very early or very late on your side of the world right now. ;-) -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From jhavens@evansville.net Sat Jan 19 10:01:20 2002 Received: from uranus.networkwcs.net (uranus.networkwcs.net [204.120.16.7]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0JH1KU05359 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:01:20 -0700 Received: from hostname (oc-nas-01-s152.cinergycom.net [216.135.6.152]) by uranus.networkwcs.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0JGx7c10727 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:59:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <007b01c1a10b$d6d9e180$7a78150a@EvansvilleOnline> From: "Jim Havens" To: Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:07:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Subject: [Raytrace] Waineo Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John, it looks like you nailed it. Your OSLO results match nicely with Bob Bridges DOS program. I need to go through your procedure a few more times to get a good handle on how you set it up. A great tutorial exercise. Thanks for your help! -Jim From jhavens@evansville.net Sat Jan 19 20:41:27 2002 Received: from uranus.networkwcs.net (uranus.networkwcs.net [204.120.16.7]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0K3fRU06259 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:41:27 -0700 Received: from hostname (oc-nas-02-s123.cinergycom.net [216.135.9.123]) by uranus.networkwcs.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0K3dIc07244 for ; Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:39:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <000901c1a165$470eb6c0$7a78150a@EvansvilleOnline> From: "Jim Havens" To: References: <200201191900.g0JJ03U05538@blackhole.idcomm.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:48:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Subject: [Raytrace] Re: Raytrace digest, Vol 1 #23 - 3 msgs Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tom always referred to the Waineo Null as the "reflection null". A few ATM's who used the test after Tom popularized it began calling it the "Waineo Null" in his honor. And yes, Tom was a super guy. -Jim Havens > You can rest assured that it is correct. Zemax confirms the PV error is > very close to 1/100 wave (on the wavefront emerging from the Parabola in the > test setup). > > > With software like OSLO around tests like these become readily available. > But I fear that ATM's will never really take advantage of null testing > > > I have never used the test but know someone who has and he is very happy. > He did a tolerance analysis as well to see what figuring errors might result > from spacing errors. Which would be a good exercise to do on this > configuration. > > If anyone wants to play with a variety of nulls all aimed at possible ways > to figure Cass secondaries, see my web site then go to page 13 - see below > > > > Somewhere in that article I mentioned the 'Waineo' null test in passing on > to variants. I specifically did NOT call it a Waineo test because it was > around long before Tom Waineo commendably tried to educate the ATM movement > about it. > > Maybe this was counterproductive on my part because people probably > recogmise it more easily under this name. And it would seem that Tom was a > really nice guy. But the ATM world is insular enough as it is. On the > other hand, I dont really know what it should be called so maybe calling it > the Waineo test is reasonable........ > > > I would really love to try this test myself. Maybe the next project in > line....... > From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 20 10:32:36 2002 Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0KHWaU07363 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:32:36 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-002ilurbap138.dialsprint.net ([158.252.113.202] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16SLnW-0002tm-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:30:27 -0500 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20020120110048.00a33740@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:29:36 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 19:22 1/17/2002 -0500, JulesFran@aol.com wrote: >Hello list, > >I'm new to this list and have a few questions: > >Has anyone modeled a four mirror TCT design with OSLO Lt? I would like to use >this as a starting point to evaluate a few designs I have been playing with. >Up til now I've been using David Stevick's software which is wonderfully >simple to use but doesn't have the horsepower I need to go to the next level. I hate to say this, but good luck. I've tried exactly one TCT design, namely the "Stevick-Paul" which consists of 3 mirrors plus a flat. I saw no obvious way to turn Stevick's specifications for tilts into an OSLO prescription. What I ended up doing was sitting down with paper and calculator and working out tilts by hand, with some additional trial and error experimentation. I think I also used some OSLO optimization to work out the tilt of the focal plane. I ended up not even trying to produce a buildable design. All I was really interested in was comparing the theoretical performance of the TCT to an axially symmetric version. The "Stevick-Paul" is kind of an interesting design. The axially symmetric version of this was discovered by Maurice Paul - optically it is equivalent to an all-reflective Schmidt, with the only third order aberration being field curvature. Stevick mentions that his version is actually axisymmetric, but it's almost impossible to tell that from either his specification or an OSLO version. It turns out though that what he is doing is rotating the two spherical elements around their respective centers of curvature to catch off-axis light from the primary. The reason it works so well at moderate focal ratios is because residual higher order aberrations are small, so correction is good even several degrees off-axis. There's a guy who's been on and off the ATM list a few times who likes to evangelize for this design. Bob May likes it too. Personally I think it's the only TCT that might possibly be worth building, but then I'm pretty ignorant of these things. Anyway, here is the text description - ****** *LENS DATA No name SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.7455e+18 AIR AST -4.7000e+03 -1.4100e+03 100.000000 AS REFLECT * 2 -1.8800e+03 1.8800e+03 64.611642 S REFLECT * 3 -1.8800e+03 -940.000000 S 146.650447 S REFLECT * 4 -- -- 41.019403 S AIR IMS -2.3500e+03 -- 41.019403 S * *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 1 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- *TILT/DECENTER DATA 1 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -- DCZ -- TLA 3.050000 TLB -- TLC -- 2 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -75.022000 DCZ -- BEN TLA -2.287000 TLB -- TLC -- 3 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -100.030000 DCZ -- BEN TLA -5.337000 TLB -- TLC -- 5 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -34.581954 DCZ -- TLA 12.585325 TLB -- TLC -- **** and the oslo file: ****Stevick-Paul.len**** // OSLO 5.40 61115 9635 23731 LEN NEW "No name" -2350 5 EBR 100.0 ANG 1.0 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 1.7455064928e+18 NXT // SRF 1 RFL RD -4700.0 TH -1410.0 CC -1.0 DT 1 TLA 3.05 NXT // SRF 2 RFL RD -1880.0 TH 1880.0 DT 1 DCY -75.022 TLA -2.287 BEN NXT // SRF 3 RFL RD -1880.0 PY 0.0 DT 1 DCY -100.03 TLA -5.337 BEN NXT // SRF 4 AIR NXT // SRF 5 AIR RD -2350.0 DT 1 DCY -34.581954245978 TLA 12.5853253995054 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 5 DLNR 2 3 DLMN 2 -1.0 DLMX 2 1.0 SDSA On OPDF 3.7920964 OPOC "*oprays" VAR NEW V 1 5 0 DCY 0.0 0.0 1.0 1.0e-07 V 2 5 0 TLA 0.0 0.0 1.0 1.0e-07 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM12" 1.0 "" O 2 "OCM15" 1.0 "" O 3 "OCM25" 1.0 "" O 4 "OCM28" 1.0 "" END ****end**** _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Mon Jan 21 00:55:35 2002 Received: from mta01bw.bigpond.com (mta01bw.bigpond.com [139.134.6.78]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0L7tWU08538 for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:55:33 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.24.78]) by mta01bw.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GQA3KI00.A9C for ; Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:00:18 +1000 Received: from prem-p-144-134-76-1.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.134.76.1]) by bwmam04.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 29/5560542); 21 Jan 2002 17:53:11 Message-ID: <005f01c1a250$ac2c6ac0$014c8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "raytrace" References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020120110048.00a33740@popd.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:51:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I have never entered a TCT into OSLO. But Zemax gives two demo lens files of TCT's that some may find of interest and may help give an idea of how to enter similar into OSLO. It would seem that at least one of these can be imported successfully into OSLO. One problem is that Zemax uses coordinate break surfaces before and after a tilted component. If OSLO counts these as actual surfaces you may be in trouble with the surface limit on OSLO LT. This is a bit of an experiment - I hope it is not wasted. The Yolo design has a more or less standard prescription plus coordinate break tilts before and after tilted mirror surfaces. Following this is a lift of the actual Zemax 'lens' file between the double lines. Rename this yolo.zmx then try to inport it into OSLO. Later there is a TriScheif - again with a prescription followed by a Zemax file changed to a txt file between the double lines. Save it and rename it Trischeif.zmx and try to import into OSLO. Hope this works. Peter Smith. ============================== Title: 3D YOLO FROM OSC TECH REPORT #68 Effective Focal Length : 3383.519 (in air) Back Focal Length : 1621.925 Image Space F/# : 13.53408 SURFACE DATA SUMMARY: Surf Type Radius Thickness Glass Diameter Conic OBJ STANDARD Infinity Infinity 0 0 1 STANDARD Infinity 50 0 0 2 COORDBRK - - - STO STANDARD -16764 0 MIRROR 250.2 0 4 -1524 - - 5 COORDBRK - - - 6 STANDARD 16764 0 MIRROR 218.8397 0 7 COORDBRK - - - 8 COORDBRK - - - 9 COORDBRK - - - 10 STANDARD -12192 0 MIRROR 146.6705 0 11 COORDBRK - - - 12 1.593 - - IMA STANDARD Infinity 32 0 SURFACE DATA DETAIL: Surface OBJ : STANDARD Surface 1 : STANDARD Surface 2 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : 0 Tilt About Y : 4.31355 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface STO : STANDARD Aperture : Floating Aperture Maximum Radius : 125.1 Surface 4 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : 0 Tilt About Y : 4.31355 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 5 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -3.98381 Tilt About Y : 1.08998 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 6 : STANDARD Surface 7 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : 0 Tilt About Y : 1.0926194 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 8 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -3.983088 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 9 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -5.523867 Tilt About Y : -1.66635 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 10 : STANDARD Surface 11 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : 0 Tilt About Y : -1.6741199 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 12 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -5.5215238 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface IMA : STANDARD ============ Save and Rename the text material below as yolo.zmx =================== VERS 10007 3 MODE SEQ NAME 3D YOLO FROM OSC TECH REPORT #68 NOTE 1 Notes... NOTE 2 NOTE 3 UNIT MM NW NWC ENPD 250 PUPD 50 250 GFAC 0 0 GCAT schott misc RAIM 1.0E-8 0 1 1 0 0 PUSH 0 0 0 0 SDMA 0 1 FTYP 0 ROPD 2 PICB 1 XFLD 0 0 YFLD 0 0.26 FWGT 1 1 WAVL 0.55 WWGT 1 PWAV 1 POLS 1 0 1 0 0 GLRS 1 GSTD 0 100.0000 100.0000 100.0000 100.0000 100.0000 100.0000 NSCD 100 500 0.00000000E+000 1.00000000E-006 20 1.00000000E-006 0 0 0 0 COFN COATING.DAT SCATTER_PROFILE.DAT ABG_DATA.DAT SURF 0 TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 SLAB 12 DISZ INFINITY DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 1 TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 SLAB 13 DISZ 50 DIAM 0 1 0 SURF 2 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 14 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 0 PARM 4 4.31355 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 3 STOP TYPE STANDARD CURV -5.965163445478e-005 0 0 0 SLAB 1 DISZ 0 GLAS MIRROR 0 0 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0 0 0 0.00000000 0.00000000 DIAM 125.1 1 0 FLAP 0 125.1 SURF 4 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 2 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 0 PARM 4 4.31355 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ -1524 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 5 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 3 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -3.98381 PARM 4 1.08998 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 6 TYPE STANDARD CURV 5.965163445478e-005 0 0 0 SLAB 4 DISZ 0 GLAS MIRROR 0 0 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0 0 0 0.00000000 0.00000000 DIAM 109.419854 0 0 SURF 7 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 5 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 0 PARM 4 1.09261943 VPAR 4 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 8 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 6 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -3.98308798 VPAR 3 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ 1562 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 9 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 7 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -5.523867 PARM 4 -1.66635 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 10 TYPE STANDARD CURV -8.202099737533e-005 0 0 0 SLAB 8 DISZ 0 GLAS MIRROR 0 0 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0 0 0 0.00000000 0.00000000 DIAM 73.3352529 0 0 SURF 11 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 9 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 0 PARM 4 -1.6741199 VPAR 4 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 12 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 SLAB 10 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -5.52152376 VPAR 3 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 DISZ -1621.593 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 13 TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 SLAB 11 DISZ 0 DIAM 16 1 0 REAY 9 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 REAX 9 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 REAY 13 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 REAX 13 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 MNUM 1 MOFF 0 1 "" 0 0 0 1 1 0.0 0.0 CSUM 898419956 ============================= NEXT DESIGN is a Tri Schief by Kutter System Aperture : Entrance Pupil Diameter = 100 Effective Focal Length : 2868.677 (in air) Back Focal Length : 449.4268 Working F/# : 28.70755 SURFACE DATA SUMMARY: Surf Type Radius Thickness Glass Diameter Conic OBJ STANDARD Infinity Infinity 0 0 STO STANDARD Infinity 1000 100 0 2 COORDBRK - - - 3 STANDARD -3238.5 0 MIRROR 107.8 0 4 -914 - - 5 COORDBRK - - - 6 TOROIDAL -3238.5 0 MIRROR 55.8 0 7 COORDBRK - - - 8 COORDBRK - - - 9 STANDARD Infinity 0 MIRROR 28 0 10 .4268 - - IMA STANDARD Infinity 0.07529837 0 SURFACE DATA DETAIL: Surface OBJ : STANDARD Surface STO : STANDARD Surface 2 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : 2.47 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 3 : STANDARD Aperture : Floating Aperture Maximum Radius : 53.9 Surface 4 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : 2.47 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 5 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -6.41 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 6 : TOROIDAL Rad of rev. : -3232.2194 Coeff on y^2 : 0 Coeff on y^4 : 0 Coeff on y^6 : 0 Coeff on y^8 : 0 Coeff on y^10 : 0 Coeff on y^12 : 0 Coeff on y^14 : 0 Aperture : Floating Aperture Maximum Radius : 27.9 Surface 7 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -6.41 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 8 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -45 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface 9 : STANDARD Aperture : Elliptical Aperture X Half Width : 8 Y Half Width : 14 Surface 10 : COORDBRK Decenter X : 0 Decenter Y : 0 Tilt About X : -45 Tilt About Y : 0 Tilt About Z : 0 Order : Decenter then tilt Surface IMA : STANDARD ============= Save and Rename the below txt material as trischief.zmx ========= VERS 7200 198 NAME tri schiefspeigler NOTE 1 Kutter Tri-Schiefspiegler. using a toroidal secondary. NOTE 2 NOTE 3 UNIT CM ENPD 100 PUPD 0 100 GFAC 0 0 GCAT schott RAIM 1.0E-8 0 1 1 0 0 PUSH 0 0 0 0 SDMA 0 1 FTYP 0 ROPD 2 PICB 1 XFLD 0 YFLD 0 FWGT 1 WAVL 0.55 WWGT 1 PWAV 1 POLS 1 0 1 0 0 GLRS 1 SURF 0 TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 SLAB 1 DISZ INFINITY DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 1 STOP TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 SLAB 2 DISZ 1000 DIAM 50 0 0 SURF 2 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 2.47 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 3 TYPE STANDARD CURV -0.0003087849312954 0 0 0 DISZ 0 GLAS MIRROR 0 0 1.500000 40.000000 0.000000 0 0 0 0.00000000 0.00000000 DIAM 53.9 1 0 SURF 4 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 2.47 PPAR 3 2 1 0 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ -914 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 5 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -6.41 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 6 TYPE TOROIDAL CURV -0.0003087849312954 0 0 0 PARM 1 -3232.219372427 VPAR 1 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 0 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ 0 GLAS MIRROR 0 0 1.500000 40.000000 0.000000 0 0 0 0.00000000 0.00000000 DIAM 27.9 1 0 SURF 7 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -6.41 PPAR 3 5 1 0 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ 800 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 8 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -45 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 9 TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 DISZ 0 GLAS MIRROR 0 0 1.500000 40.000000 0.000000 0 0 0 0.00000000 0.00000000 DIAM 14 1 0 ELAP 8 14 SURF 10 TYPE COORDBRK CURV 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 PARM 1 0 PARM 2 0 PARM 3 -45 PPAR 3 8 1 0 PARM 4 0 PARM 5 0 PARM 6 0 PARM 7 0 PARM 8 0 DISZ -449.42676422 MAZH 0 0 DIAM 0 0 0 SURF 11 TYPE STANDARD CURV 0 0 0 0 SLAB 3 DISZ 0 DIAM 0.0376491866 0 0 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.167855344 0.290733983 0 0.145444104 299.549034 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.353553391 0.612372436 0 0.232710567 0.580294285 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.470982573 0.815765745 0 0.145444104 -298.961925 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.335710687 0 0 0.145444104 298.827034 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.707106781 0 0 0.232710567 -0.551319329 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.941965145 0 0 0.145444104 -299.755897 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.167855344 -0.290733983 0 0.145444104 298.44579 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.353553391 -0.612372436 0 0.232710567 -0.173001206 OPDX 0 1 0 0 0.470982573 -0.815765745 0 0.145444104 -297.873594 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.167855344 -0.290733983 0 0.145444104 298.44579 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.353553391 -0.612372436 0 0.232710567 -0.173001206 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.470982573 -0.815765745 0 0.145444104 -297.873594 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.335710687 1.9183474e-016 0 0.145444104 298.827034 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.707106781 4.04061148e-016 0 0.232710567 -0.551319327 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.941965145 5.3826597e-016 0 0.145444104 -299.755897 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.167855344 0.290733983 0 0.145444104 299.549034 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.353553391 0.612372436 0 0.232710567 0.580294285 OPDX 0 1 0 0 -0.470982573 0.815765745 0 0.145444104 -298.961925 MNUM 1 =================================== From jd-upton@texas.net Mon Jan 28 11:15:32 2002 Received: from mg03.austin.ibm.com (mg03.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.20]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0SIFWU23645 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:15:32 -0700 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail1.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.138]) by mg03.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19246; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:10:10 -0600 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA36268; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:12:58 -0600 Received: from UPTON.texas.net (upton.austin.ibm.com [9.53.68.105]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id MAA23760; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:12:58 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20020128113732.00cd66a0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:14:04 -0600 To: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John, At 07:22 PM 1/17/02 -0500, John Francis wrote: >Has anyone modeled a mirror profile using Zernike polynomials for input into >a raytrace program? What I would like to do is use the actual test results >from a mirror profile analysis and use this to evaluate the system Strehl >ratio of a final "as built" TCT. I haven't seen any response to this part of your post last week. I have never tried to do this, so I cannot help in that respect. I am intrigued by the concept, though. Has anyone of this list done this before? It would seem the ultimate way to assess the potential performance of a mirror (short of using it under near-perfect seeing conditions). The real problem in attempting this would be the data reduction from Foucault (or Gaviola caustic, etc.) test data to a set of polynomial coefficients to enter into OSLO. What analysis tools might be available to help transform test measurements into polynomial coefficients? John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Mon Jan 28 15:50:22 2002 Received: from mta05ps.bigpond.com (mta05ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.137]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0SMoKU24039 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:50:21 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.25.84]) by mta05ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GQO7NJ00.EA1 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:54:55 +1000 Received: from 144.138.93.231 ([144.138.93.231]) by psmam06.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 110/1801646); 29 Jan 2002 08:47:41 Message-ID: <00cc01c1a84d$cebb15c0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "raytrace" References: <4.3.1.0.20020128113732.00cd66a0@mail.texas.net> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:46:17 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > At 07:22 PM 1/17/02 -0500, John Francis wrote: > >Has anyone modeled a mirror profile using Zernike polynomials for input into > >a raytrace program? What I would like to do is use the actual test results > >from a mirror profile analysis and use this to evaluate the system Strehl > >ratio of a final "as built" TCT. And John Upton replied :- > > I haven't seen any response to this part of your post last week. I > have never tried to do this, so I cannot help in that respect. I am > intrigued by the concept, though. > > Has anyone of this list done this before? It would seem the ultimate > way to assess the potential performance of a mirror (short of using it > under near-perfect seeing conditions). The real problem in attempting this > would be the data reduction from Foucault (or Gaviola caustic, etc.) test > data to a set of polynomial coefficients to enter into OSLO. > > What analysis tools might be available to help transform test > measurements into polynomial coefficients? I did not reply originally because I have never entered Zernikes in Zemax and from that simulated performance. So, no, I dont have much to offer here. In theory Zemax can do it but there are many problems. Mainly the fact that Zemax comes in Standard, Advanced and More advanced (called by other names) with extra capabilities. For the first you only need to part with an arm. The next costs an arm and a leg and the more advanced requires even more intimate sacrifice. Luckily I got in very early before prices really skyrocketed.- and then the Australian dollar was worth a lot more too. If anyone reads a rave review about some special feature of Zemax beware - dont go out and blindly purchase because the chances are it will only be available in the advanced editions and you had better look at the price first. Entry of a surface as Zernikes was only available in the more advanced editions but this may have changed now. Anyway, no, I cannot help although I can in theory do it. What I need is a good tutorial with examples on how to use this feasture of Zemax.. I am waiting. Zemax also allows one to enter custom surfaces in a variety of other ways. Apart from the more normal conics and Even and Odd Aspheres, with you can enter surfaces by entering linear polynomial coefficients but that is is very awkward because it is messy to get and enter the required coefficients. Another option is to enter nodes representing departure measurements which is far more user friendly. I have dabbled with this but found that with the number of nodes (its a cubic spline) limited to 8 on a radius there is limited control - especially at the edges because you do not have control of the edge slope and you cannot see the mirror shape without plotting out surface heights from another portion of the program. So you do not get visual feedback on the shape you are entering. Its right at the nodes but not always in between and the slope on the edge is out of control. Anyway, to get back to Zernikes. I dont understand them enough and I simply dont have the need or incentive to rectify this lamentable position. Again, any information on this I am willing to absorb as long as it is not too complex. It is not too difficult (but messy) to compute predicted Strehl from a surface profile. If one knows departure from the ideal shape - eg a paraboloid in a Newt. - one knows the departure from a spherical wavefront of the reflected rays. From this one can compute the RMS deviation and finally apply a simple formular to compute Strehl. I think one of Jim Burrows programs may allow you to enter departures into a file which will then do some of these calculations. It does not handle Zernikes (I dont think) but it may be a more practical approach. Coincidentally I have done something along these lines. Although it does not do it via Zernikes I have written a program which allows one to draw on screen a mirror profile via mouse representing departures from any target conic. It uses 20 nodes to a clamped cubic spline fit across a radius plus two outside the edge so the edge slope can be better defined. The initial aim of the program was to then simulate Ronchi, Wire and Foucault (geometric only - I am not up to proper diffraction calcs) but I subsequently added an analysis feature which does the RMS and Strehl calculations for the target conic plus departures. This seems to work well. Like many things I do this grew like topsy as I added interesting bits and pieces and there are various bugs although it is close to release as long as people are willing to put up with some idiosynchrosies. The next step, partly finished, is to add a Foucault reduction section so the derived surface shape can then be directly used to generate Ronchi and Strehl info. Its partly done but I have had to call it quits for now and tidy up what is finished rather than dabble with the Foucault interface to the rest of the program. Maybe I can arrange release of this soon if people are interested but I am rather strapped for time right now. Sorry if this did not answer the original question and strayed far from raytracing into the testing area. Hope some is of interest. Peter Smith. From JulesFran@aol.com Mon Jan 28 17:24:18 2002 Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0T0OHU24182 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:24:17 -0700 Received: from JulesFran@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id 3.177.2cd885b (3981); Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:21:36 -0500 (EST) From: JulesFran@aol.com Message-ID: <177.2cd885b.29874510@aol.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:21:36 EST Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Te... To: jd-upton@texas.net CC: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_177.2cd885b.29874510_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --part1_177.2cd885b.29874510_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/28/2002 12:14:15 PM Central Standard Time, jd-upton@texas.net writes: > > > What analysis tools might be available to help transform test > measurements into polynomial coefficients? > John, I notice that Jim Burrows is outputting the first three even surface Z coefficients in his latest Windows version of Sixtests w/Zernike. I was hoping these could be entered into Oslo Lt but haven't tried this yet since my skill with this software is fairly limited. Does anyone know if this can be done? Regards, John Francis --part1_177.2cd885b.29874510_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/28/2002 12:14:15 PM Central Standard Time, jd-upton@texas.net writes:




     What analysis tools might be available to help transform test
measurements into polynomial coefficients?

John,

I notice that Jim Burrows is outputting the first three even surface Z coefficients in his latest Windows version of Sixtests w/Zernike. I was hoping these could be entered into Oslo Lt but haven't tried this yet since my skill with this software is fairly limited. Does anyone know if this can be done?

Regards,

John Francis --part1_177.2cd885b.29874510_boundary-- From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 28 19:12:20 2002 Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0T2CKU24343 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:12:20 -0700 Received: from sdn-ar-001ilurbap311.dialsprint.net ([158.252.112.177] helo=michaelp.ix.netcom.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16VNiY-0005wa-00 for Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:09:50 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020128190236.00a13790@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:03:19 -0600 To: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20020128113732.00cd66a0@mail.texas.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 12:14 1/28/2002 -0600, John D. Upton wrote: > Has anyone of this list done this before? It would seem the ultimate > way to assess the potential performance of a mirror (short of using it > under near-perfect seeing conditions). The real problem in attempting > this would be the data reduction from Foucault (or Gaviola caustic, etc.) > test data to a set of polynomial coefficients to enter into OSLO. > > What analysis tools might be available to help transform test > measurements into polynomial coefficients? I know two different ways to extract Zernike polynomial fits from Foucault test data. I'd even be happy to tell you how to do it, but the methods don't exactly lend themselves to ascii math and the limitations of a mailing list. There's nothing particularly difficult or mysterious about it though -- although there is a certain amount of number crunching involved. I didn't know the latest version of Sixtests provides Zernike polynomial output. I suspect that its output can probably be entered without modification into OSLO LT, but I'll have to check it out. The free version of OSLO is pretty limited as to how you can specify a surface. It only recognizes the radially symmetric polynomials, so you'll only be able to use part of the information from an interferogram that includes measurements of astigmatism and other non-symmetric aberrations. It appears that the coefficients OSLO expects are relative to the surface in whatever units of measure you're using. I think interferograms will typically give Zernike coefficients in waves on the wavefront, so you'd need to multiply by the wavelength and divide by two (for a mirror - and possibly reverse the sign) to enter into OSLO. When you do a Zernike analysis of a wavefront in OSLO it returns coefficients in waves, so its output convention differs from its input convention. In general usage conventions for Zernike polynomials aren't well standardized, so transferring values from one program to another may well lead to nasty surprises. I've occasionally encountered optical designs that include high order aspheres, but Zernike polynomials never seem to be used for that purpose. The only situation where you're likely to encounter them is if you have actual test data. I'm going to include one sample here. This has 20nm RMS of the Zernike polynomial equivalent of 9th order spherical aberration, on top of the 250mm f/6 paraboloid that we've been using as our "standard" newtonian mirror. The coefficient value I entered is AS5 = 10^-6*sqrt(11)*20. If you do a wavefront analysis of this you'll see that the RMS wavefront error is just over .07 waves and the Strehl ratio is 0.8, while P-V is over 0.4 - this is evaluated at 550nm. ***** 250mm f/6 newt with added Zernike asphere ***** *LENS DATA Newtonian 250mm f/6 SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 1.0000e+20 1.5709e+18 AIR AST -3.0000e+03 -1.5000e+03 S 125.000000 AS REFLECT * 2 -- -- 23.563883 S AIR IMS -- -- 23.563883 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 1 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- *ASPHERIC SURFACE DATA 1 ASP ZSR 5 - SYMMETRIC ZERNIKE SAG AS0 -- AS1 -- AS2 -- AS3 -- AS4 -- AS5 6.6330e-05 ******** Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From rflrs@javanet.com Mon Jan 28 20:47:53 2002 Received: from mail1.javanet.com (mail1.javanet.com [205.219.162.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0T3lqU24488 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:47:52 -0700 Received: from javanet.com (207-172-216-112.s620.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.216.112]) by mail1.javanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA20624 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:45:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:50:46 +0000 From: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RAYTRACE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Optimization Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I hope this is not too esoteric, as I will be describing a symptom that I have encountered using some features in Zemax. Starting with a Clark refractor designed using the Gsum program (from Bob May's website), I created an design (BK7,F4) in Zemax which I optimized with the following goals: a) Effective Focal Length equal to 15 times the Entry Pupil b) Minimal Lens thickness equal to 11% of the semi-diameter. c) A default merit function of RMS wavefront error, not ignoring lateral color. using an appropriate field and the built-in Photopic wavelength selection: wavelength weight 0.470 0.091 0.510 0.503 0.555 1.000 0.610 0.503 0.650 0.107 After optimization, the Polychromatic Strehl ratio was 0.840 for that wavelength selection. However, going back to ATM2, and using the prescription given for the Baker version, the Strehl ratio was 0.859. I found (and I have found this consistent using several different glass combinations) that, if I optimize instead for wavelengths 0.482, 0.522, 0.571, 0.628, and 0.670 (adding 12 ... 20 nm to the each) that the Strehl ratio improves to 0.860. What am I missing here, that the optimization using the desired band is consistently coming up with a poorer solution for that band than an optimization using another band? Are these tools measuring different quantities; quantities that are not strongly correlated? Rick S. From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Tue Jan 29 15:04:26 2002 Received: from mta05ps.bigpond.com ([144.135.25.137]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0TM4PU25977 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:04:25 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.25.72]) by mta05ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GQQ06700.733 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:08:31 +1000 Received: from 144.138.92.53 ([144.138.92.53]) by PSMAM02.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 74/2159864); 30 Jan 2002 08:01:17 Message-ID: <019d01c1a910$7de009d0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "raytrace" References: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Optimization Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:00:14 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: : "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" wrote > using an appropriate field and the built-in Photopic wavelength > selection: > > wavelength weight > 0.470 0.091 > 0.510 0.503 > 0.555 1.000 > 0.610 0.503 > 0.650 0.107 > > After optimization, the Polychromatic Strehl ratio was 0.840 > I found (and I have found this consistent using several different > glass combinations) that, if I optimize instead for wavelengths > 0.482, 0.522, 0.571, 0.628, and 0.670 (adding 12 ... 20 nm to > the each) that the Strehl ratio improves to 0.860. I suspect that the discrepence is totally due to your choice of what Zemax calls the 'primary' wavelength. This is the weavelength chosen for the reporting of any wave errors. Most likely Zemax was automatically set for 550 in the first case, then 571 in the second case. The Strehl would increase with larger wavelengths so this is consistent. How this impacts on the calculation of the 'Polychromatic Strehl' I am not sure but it would be easy to introduce a sixth wavelength of 550 in the second case, giving it a weighting of 0 (or if it dont like that 0.00001) and setting it as the Primary wavelength and then repeat the calculations with this. This should confirm what is happening. I know I have had inconsistencies traced to the accidental changing of the primary wavelength which went unnoticed for quite a while. Peter Smith. From rflrs@javanet.com Tue Jan 29 15:27:31 2002 Received: from mail1.javanet.com (mail1.javanet.com [205.219.162.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0TMRUU26032 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:27:31 -0700 Received: from javanet.com (207-172-97-1.s1.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.97.1]) by mail1.javanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA31785; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:24:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C572279.7020006@javanet.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:30:17 +0000 From: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter John Smith CC: raytrace Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Optimization References: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> <019d01c1a910$7de009d0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter John Smith wrote: >: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" wrote > > >>using an appropriate field and the built-in Photopic wavelength >>selection: >> >> wavelength weight >> 0.470 0.091 >> 0.510 0.503 >> 0.555 1.000 >> 0.610 0.503 >> 0.650 0.107 >> >>After optimization, the Polychromatic Strehl ratio was 0.840 >> > > > > >>I found (and I have found this consistent using several different >>glass combinations) that, if I optimize instead for wavelengths >>0.482, 0.522, 0.571, 0.628, and 0.670 (adding 12 ... 20 nm to >>the each) that the Strehl ratio improves to 0.860. >> > > >I suspect that the discrepence is totally due to your choice of what Zemax >calls the 'primary' wavelength. > >This is the weavelength chosen for the reporting of any wave errors. > >Most likely Zemax was automatically set for 550 in the first case, then 571 >in the second case. The Strehl would increase with larger wavelengths so >this is consistent. > >How this impacts on the calculation of the 'Polychromatic Strehl' I am not >sure but it would be easy to introduce a sixth wavelength of 550 in the >second case, giving it a weighting of 0 (or if it dont like that 0.00001) >and setting it as the Primary wavelength and then repeat the calculations >with this. This should confirm what is happening. > Adding a sixth wavelength to the second case (0.555, weight 1e-6), making it the primary, regenerating the default merit function to include the new wavelength, and reoptimizing changes the result by about 0.002%, so it is not the Polychromatic Strehl reporting function. (I had surmised this from cross-checking the results with the OSLO Polychromatic Strehl reporting. Rick S. > >I know I have had inconsistencies traced to the accidental changing of the >primary wavelength which went unnoticed for quite a while. > > >Peter Smith. > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Raytrace mailing list >Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com >http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace > > From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Tue Jan 29 17:25:36 2002 Received: from mta04ps.bigpond.com (mta04ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.136]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0U0PYU26209 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:25:35 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.25.69]) by mta04ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GQQ6QB00.DG2; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:30:11 +1000 Received: from 144.138.91.156 ([144.138.91.156]) by PSMAM01.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 65/13054964); 30 Jan 2002 10:22:52 Message-ID: <01d101c1a924$47dbaba0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" Cc: "raytrace" References: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> <019d01c1a910$7de009d0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C572279.7020006@javanet.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Optimization Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:21:32 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Richard, > Adding a sixth wavelength to the second case (0.555, weight 1e-6), > making it the primary, regenerating the default merit function to > include the new wavelength, and reoptimizing changes the result by > about 0.002%, so it is not the Polychromatic Strehl reporting function. > (I had surmised this from cross-checking the results with the OSLO > Polychromatic Strehl reporting. Well, I thought it was a possibility but you now confirmed its not. What weightings are you giving to the 0.482, 0.522, 0.571, 0.628, and 0.670 ? Maybe by shifting all wavelengths up a bit the design is more tolerant which is a possibility. Performance is usually harder to extend into the far blue than far red because of the more rapidly changing index at the blue end. Its the only thing I can think of. Peter. From rflrs@javanet.com Tue Jan 29 17:48:05 2002 Received: from mail1.javanet.com (mail1.javanet.com [205.219.162.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0U0m4U26258 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:48:04 -0700 Received: from javanet.com (209-122-236-106.s1979.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [209.122.236.106]) by mail1.javanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA11397; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:45:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C574361.6080001@javanet.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:50:41 +0000 From: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter John Smith CC: raytrace Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Optimization References: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> <019d01c1a910$7de009d0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C572279.7020006@javanet.com> <01d101c1a924$47dbaba0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter John Smith wrote: >Richard, > > >>Adding a sixth wavelength to the second case (0.555, weight 1e-6), >>making it the primary, regenerating the default merit function to >>include the new wavelength, and reoptimizing changes the result by >>about 0.002%, so it is not the Polychromatic Strehl reporting function. >>(I had surmised this from cross-checking the results with the OSLO >>Polychromatic Strehl reporting. >> > >Well, I thought it was a possibility but you now confirmed its not. > >What weightings are you giving to the 0.482, 0.522, 0.571, 0.628, and 0.670 >? > >Maybe by shifting all wavelengths up a bit the design is more tolerant which >is a possibility. Performance is usually harder to extend into the far blue >than far red because of the more rapidly changing index at the blue end. > I probably did not explain this well enough. Step 1 was to optimize the design using the built-in wavelengths. The Polychromatic Strehl was measured using both the measures provided in Zemax and OSLO. Step 2a The wavelengths were shifted (same respective weights, though) and the designed was reoptimized for the new wavelengths. Step 2b The wavelengths were shifted back to the built-in wavelengths, but without redoing optimization; just reverting back to the original measurement point. The Polychromatic Strehl was measured again using both the measures. The results: Although OSLO systematicly gave a slightly lower Strehl ratio than Zemax, both gave HIGHER Strehl Ratios in step 2b than in step 1. Rick S. > >Its the only thing I can think of. > >Peter. > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Raytrace mailing list >Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com >http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace > > From pjifl@bigpond.com.au Wed Jan 30 07:28:09 2002 Received: from mta01ps.bigpond.com (mta01ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.133]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0UES7U27380 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 07:28:08 -0700 Received: from yourte6r9bjnhd ([144.135.25.75]) by mta01ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GQR9QH00.2U4; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:32:41 +1000 Received: from prem-p-144-134-76-164.mega.tmns.net.au ([144.134.76.164]) by PSMAM03.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0h 83/2180325); 31 Jan 2002 00:25:31 Message-ID: <020e01c1a999$fa48ccd0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> From: "Peter John Smith" To: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" Cc: "raytrace" References: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> <019d01c1a910$7de009d0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C572279.7020006@javanet.com> <01d101c1a924$47dbaba0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C574361.6080001@javanet.com> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Optimization Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:35:45 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Richard, > I probably did not explain this well enough. > > Step 1 was to optimize the design using the built-in wavelengths. > The Polychromatic Strehl was measured using both the measures > provided in Zemax and OSLO. > > Step 2a The wavelengths were shifted (same respective weights, though) > and the designed was reoptimized for the new wavelengths. > > Step 2b The wavelengths were shifted back to the built-in wavelengths, > but without redoing optimization; just reverting back to the > original measurement point. The Polychromatic Strehl was measured > again using both the measures. > > The results: > > Although OSLO systematicly gave a slightly lower Strehl ratio > than Zemax, both gave HIGHER Strehl Ratios in step 2b than > in step 1. I have No explanation. Care to send me the Zemax files from step 1 and step 2a. You can send them to me as attachments if you like. I would rather have the actual Zemax files because the difference may be a subtle setting somewhere that would not be obvious in a prescription output. The difference between 0.84 and 0.86 is not a lot but it would be nice to trace down what is happening. Peter Smith. From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Wed Jan 30 10:48:29 2002 Received: from popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (popa.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.244.174]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0UHmSU27673 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 10:48:29 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0UHjk609123 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:45:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020130113403.00b34930@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:46:22 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: HI all: I have a copy of Zemax that can take Zernike polynomial inputs. It is on one of my 'to-do' lists to read the Zernike ouput file from a Zygo or QuickFringe data file and model the optical behavior. I'm just getting around to play with the program. Hopefully the learning curve is not too steep there. But first I need to tackle a mundane problem. How do you input all those long strings of decimal numbers into Zemax gracefully? The program runs under Windows (2K) but the Cntr-C (copy) Cntr-V (paste) utilities don't seem to work. And I really would like to avoid manually typing in all 37 terms. Any suggestions? Regards, P.C. Chen > At 07:22 PM 1/17/02 -0500, John Francis wrote: > >Has anyone modeled a mirror profile using Zernike polynomials for input into > >a raytrace program? From jd-upton@texas.net Wed Jan 30 11:02:52 2002 Received: from mg02.austin.ibm.com (mg02.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0UI2pU27711 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:02:51 -0700 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail2.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.139]) by mg02.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22950; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:09:07 -0600 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA37684; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:00:14 -0600 Received: from UPTON.texas.net (upton.austin.ibm.com [9.53.68.105]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id MAA21748; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:00:13 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20020130115434.00c9f230@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:00:52 -0600 To: Peter Chen From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Cc: Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020130113403.00b34930@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Peter, At 11:46 AM 1/30/02 -0500, you wrote: > But first I need to tackle a mundane problem. How do you input > all those long strings of decimal numbers into Zemax gracefully? The > program runs under Windows (2K) but the Cntr-C (copy) Cntr-V (paste) > utilities don't seem to work. And I really would like to avoid manually > typing in all 37 terms. Any I don't have Zemax, so I am just guessing here, but OSLO has a similar problem. Many programs that do not explicitly accept cut and past at the program level, still respond at the control element level. (It's a Windows thing...) Try this; it works with OSLO. Copy the text from where you want and then move the mouse over the target edit control. Select its contents and hit the delete key. Now, with the mouse still over the control, click the right mouse button. You may see a menu pop up with the usual Cut, Copy, Paste commands. Select paste from the menu. The contents of the clipboard will pasted into the control as if you had typed them. Hit the enter key to store the value... Hope it works in Zemax. It is a real time saver in OSLO for the same reason. John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From rflrs@javanet.com Thu Jan 31 13:31:58 2002 Received: from mail1.javanet.com (mail1.javanet.com [205.219.162.10]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0VKVuU29888 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:31:57 -0700 Received: from javanet.com (207-172-97-184.s184.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.97.184]) by mail1.javanet.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA07756; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:29:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C59AA59.4020909@javanet.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:34:33 +0000 From: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter John Smith , RAYTRACE Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Optimization References: <3C561C16.5080207@javanet.com> <019d01c1a910$7de009d0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C572279.7020006@javanet.com> <01d101c1a924$47dbaba0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C574361.6080001@javanet.com> <020e01c1a999$fa48ccd0$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> <3C58949B.9060109@javanet.com> <02b601c1aa4d$773af200$644b8690@yourte6r9bjnhd> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030605040309010905030809" Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------030605040309010905030809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter John Smith wrote: >Richard, > >I have run those files and get different results from yours. > > >Step 1 was to optimize the design using the built-in wavelengths. > The Polychromatic Strehl was measured using both the measures > provided in Zemax and OSLO. > > >Your file > >Attached (I hope). Step 1 is in file bk7_f4_doub_2.zmx > > >Gives Strehl is close to 0.74 > > >The next file > > and Step 2a is >in file bk7_f4_doub_3.zmx (I used up bk7_f4_doub_1.zmx with the original >Baker design). > > >Gives Strehl close to 0.755 > >Then when I complete step 2b by replacing wl with the set > >>> wavelength weight >>> 0.470 0.091 >>> 0.510 0.503 >>> 0.555 1.000 >>> 0.610 0.503 >>> 0.650 0.107 >>> > >I now get Strehl close to 0.675 which is more or less what one would expect >to happen. > > These are different from your values of 0.84 and 0.86 which you reported. >Just check these to make sure they are 0.8 + and not 0.7 +. Its not likely >but double check it. > The discrepancy here is that we were looking at different Zemax outputs, I think. For my measure, I was using the Stehl ratio given in the Huygens PSF, while I believe you were using the RMS vs field Strehl ratio. Going back to the manual... Zemax specifies that the RMS vs field measures use the primary wavelength as a reference, but provide a wavelength weighted measure. I found that the output seems to be independent of the primary wavelength. The Huygens measure does not specify that it is wavelength weight sensitive, but I tweaked a couple of weights and found it is, in fact, sensitive to the weights. I have, however also found that the Huygens PSF measure is sensitive to the sampling. For step 1, I got: 32x32 0.840 64x64 0.826 128x128 0.820 256x256 0.816 The OSLO PSF for this is 0.812... looks like Zemax might be heading there. Even with the PSF value of 0.812, there is still some difference between that and 0.74. Are these supposed to be the same value (or one an approximation of the other)? But also back to the question that brought all these meanderings: When I originally tried this, I was attempting to match the locations of the nulls to those of Baker's original design. Why would Baker have chosen the solution closer (at least I think it is) to step 2b, than to step 1? Rick S. > >I do not know what is going on. My Zemax that I used here is Version 10.0 - >Aprip 2001. > >As a matter of interest. > >I optimised after your step 1 - stays the same > >Then optimised step 2a - stays the same > >Then changed wl to the original and optimised and Strehl went back to 0.74 >so the optimiser seems identical. > >I really dont know. > >Peter. > > > > > > > --------------030605040309010905030809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Peter John Smith wrote:
Richard,

I have run those files and get different results from yours.


Step 1 was to optimize the design using the built-in wavelengths.
     The Polychromatic Strehl was measured using both the measures
     provided in Zemax and OSLO.

Your file

Attached (I hope).  Step 1 is in file bk7_f4_doub_2.zmx

Gives Strehl is close to 0.74


The next file

 and Step 2a is
in file bk7_f4_doub_3.zmx (I used up bk7_f4_doub_1.zmx with the original
Baker design).

Gives Strehl close to 0.755

Then when I complete step 2b by replacing wl with the set

       wavelength  weight
         0.470      0.091
         0.510      0.503
         0.555      1.000
         0.610      0.503
         0.650      0.107

I now get Strehl close to 0.675 which is more or less what one would expect
to happen.

 These are different from your values of 0.84 and 0.86 which you reported.
Just check these to make sure they are 0.8 + and not 0.7 +.  Its not likely
but double check it.
The discrepancy here is that we were looking at different Zemax outputs,
I think.  For my measure, I was using the Stehl ratio given in the
Huygens PSF, while I believe you were using the RMS vs field Strehl
ratio.

Going back to the manual...
Zemax specifies that the RMS vs field measures use the primary wavelength
as a reference, but provide a wavelength weighted measure.  I found that
the output seems to be independent of the primary wavelength.
The Huygens measure does not specify that it is wavelength weight sensitive,
but I tweaked a couple of weights and found it is, in fact, sensitive to
the weights.

I have, however also found that the Huygens PSF measure is sensitive to
the sampling.  For step 1, I got:

    32x32    0.840
    64x64    0.826
   128x128   0.820
   256x256   0.816

The OSLO PSF for this is 0.812... looks like Zemax might be heading
there.

Even with the PSF value of 0.812, there is still some difference between
that and 0.74.  Are these supposed to be the same value (or one an
approximation of the other)?

But also back to the question that brought all these meanderings:
 When I originally tried this, I was attempting to match
the locations of the nulls to those of Baker's original design.
Why would Baker have chosen the solution closer (at least I think it
is) to step 2b, than to step 1?

                        Rick S.


I do not know what is going on.  My Zemax that I used here is Version 10.0 -
Aprip 2001.

As a matter of interest.

I optimised after your step 1 - stays the same

Then optimised step 2a - stays the same

Then changed wl to the original and optimised and Strehl went back to 0.74
so the optimiser seems identical.

I really dont know.

Peter.








--------------030605040309010905030809-- From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Thu Jan 31 17:34:32 2002 Received: from popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (popa.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.244.174]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g110YVU30238 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:34:31 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g110Vm607397; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:31:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020131181347.00c33d10@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:27:03 -0500 To: "John D. Upton" From: Peter Chen Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Zernike Polynomial Modeling (Was: Re: TCT (Tilted Component Telescope) designs Cc: In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20020130115434.00c9f230@mail.texas.net> References: <4.2.2.20020130113403.00b34930@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi John: Thanks for the tip. >Copy the text from where you want and then move the mouse over the target edit control. Select its contents and hit the >delete key. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'move the mouse over the target edit control, select its contents and hit delete'. So I played around with it a bit in Zemax. I highlighted the target cell and hit 'delete', nothing happened, and the right mouse click yielded the usual Zemax dialogue box. I found by trail and error that in Zemax one has to highlight the target cell, input zero ('0'), then backspace. And then the right mouse click gives you the Copy/Paste options. I managed to input the Zernike terms this way, one by one, all 37 of them. It's a bit tedious, but It does save a lot of typing and mistakes. I can't help thinking, though, there must be a neater way to do things. I guess I must be getting spoiled by all the things you can do with a couple of keystrokes and clicks in a spreadsheet program like Excel. Thanks very much for the helpful tip. Now I need to see about getting the rest of the raytrace working. Regards, P.C. Chen > From chen@stars.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Feb 15 17:41:51 2002 Received: from popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.244.174]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g1G0foD03774 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:41:51 -0700 Received: from rama (rama.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.174.96]) by popa.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1G0caX26676 for ; Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:38:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020215194548.00b15290@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov> X-Sender: pechen@pop600.gsfc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:48:14 -0500 To: From: Peter Chen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] French ray trace program Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I came across this site http://www-obs.univ-lyon1.fr/~henault/cosac/cosac.htm on the web. It has a free raytrace program for download. The write up is in French. Has anyone tried it? Regards, P.C. Chen From shermj@netzero.net Sat Apr 6 17:56:36 2002 Received: from mail9.wlv.netzero.net (mail9.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.66]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g370uZD07654 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 17:56:35 -0700 Received: (qmail 20602 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2002 00:56:28 -0000 Received: from lai-ca19-205.rasserver.net (HELO zz) (206.217.12.205) by mail9.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 7 Apr 2002 00:56:28 -0000 Message-ID: <004101c1ddcf$9f0eca80$cd0cd9ce@zz> From: "John Sherman" To: "raytrace" Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 23:45:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Subject: [Raytrace] oslo lt Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hello list, Is anyone awake out there who knows OSLO lt? :) I was trying to set up something but I just haven't figured it out. How do I model a second surface mirror? I couldn't find a better way, so I had to use two surfaces locked together with zero thickness between. This provides four surfaces for one piece of glass. The result seems OK, but questionable. I couldn't put REFL_HATCH and BK7 in the same box at the same time. Is there a setting or something? Thank you, John From jd-upton@texas.net Sat Apr 6 19:32:22 2002 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g372WMD07909 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 19:32:22 -0700 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet04-58.austin.texas.net [209.99.40.247]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g372WKl26918; Sat, 6 Apr 2002 20:32:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020406202058.00d13650@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 20:30:59 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] oslo lt Cc: "John Sherman" In-Reply-To: <004101c1ddcf$9f0eca80$cd0cd9ce@zz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John, At 11:45 PM 4/5/2002 -0800, you wrote: >model a second surface mirror? I couldn't find a better way, so I had to >use two surfaces locked together with zero thickness between. This >provides four >surfaces for one piece of glass. The result seems OK, but questionable. I You were on the right track. A second surface mirror (like a Mangin secondary) is entered as three surfaces. Surface 1: The glass surface. Enter the curvature & glass type, thickness, etc. Surface 2: The REFLECT_HATCH surface. Enter the curvature. For the thickness, use a "minus thickness pickup" of surface 1. Surface 3: Use a "curvature pickup" of surface 1. I hope that explanation is clear. John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From shermj@netzero.net Tue Apr 9 19:23:10 2002 Received: from mail9.wlv.netzero.net (mail9.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.66]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g3A1N9D23432 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 2002 19:23:09 -0600 Received: (qmail 14191 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2002 01:22:57 -0000 Received: from lai-ca9-104.rasserver.net (HELO zz) (207.93.42.104) by mail9.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2002 01:22:57 -0000 Message-ID: <000301c1e02e$cc3928a0$682a5dcf@zz> From: "John Sherman" To: "raytrace" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] oslo lt Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:56:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi John, > > A second surface mirror (like a Mangin >secondary) is entered as three surfaces. > > I hope that explanation is clear. Indeed it is. After playing around with it a bit I can see that the light leaving the lens is refracted, verifying that it works. Thank you, John From mikell@optonline.net Sat Apr 13 13:15:09 2002 Received: from mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.17]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3DJF8D03220 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:15:08 -0600 Received: from there (ool-435051f9.dyn.optonline.net [67.80.81.249]) by mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with SMTP id <0GUI004HVTHUHN@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 15:15:07 -0400 From: Michael Lindner To: raytrace Message-id: <0GUI004HWTHUHN@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_7zpaioXikK6LBvHIXbevKQ)" Subject: [Raytrace] How to Specify a Schmidt Corrector in Oslo? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --Boundary_(ID_7zpaioXikK6LBvHIXbevKQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As an exercise in learning about Oslo, and about ray tracing in general, I am entering all the examples from Rutten and van Venrooij's book. I got all the way to the Schmidt camera, and find myself stymied. First off, R&V don't say which side of the corrector they put the figure on, but I don't believe it matters much (and in the drawing they provide, they show it on the inside). But my real problem lies in figuring out how to enter the parameter for teh schmidt corrector. R&V specify 3 numbers, A, B, and C, whcih they define in terms of Z = Ah^2 + Bh^4 + Ch^6 whereas Oslo has a radius of curvature and 4th, 6th, etc. order deformation coefficients. I translated the R&V parameters as follows: Since a parbola is defined by Z = h^2/2R I entered 2/A for the radius of curvature of the back side of the corrector (front is flat), made the back side a conic with a conic constant of -1 (parabola), and entered the "B" and "C" terms from R&V as the 4th and 6th order deformation coefficients. This produces a horrible design that doesn't even come close to decent performance. Am I doing it wrong? Attached is the Oslo file. -- Michael Lindner Personal Page http://home.att.net/~mikel S*T*A*R Astronomy Club http://www.starastronomy.org The ATM Site http://www.atmsite.org Telescope Making Web Ring http://www.crickrock.com/cgi-bin/webring/list.pl?ringid=TelescopeMaking ATM Mailing List (FAQ at http://home.attbi.com/~dcass/atmfaq/atm-faq.htm) --Boundary_(ID_7zpaioXikK6LBvHIXbevKQ) Content-type: text/x-c++; charset=iso-8859-1; name=schmidt-f3.len Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=schmidt-f3.len // OSLO 6.1 18726 16418 46625 LEN NEW "200mm Schmidt f/3" -599.22 4 EBR 100.0 GIH 20.0 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 SNO6 "geniierf_lt 0.0494835687547 25.0 1.00 -0.90 0.90 0.80 -0.80 0.80 0.70 1.0 1.0" // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 3.3376610369e+18 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 RD -2.40408e+05 TH 6.0 AP CHK 100.0 CC -1.0 AD 2.74057192e-10 AE 2.90241421e-16 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD 4.0e+23 TH 1200.0 AP 100.0 NXT // SRF 3 RFH TCE 0.0 RD -1200.0 TH -598.431 CC 7.6755 NXT // SRF 4 AIR RD -600.0 TH 11.149060415244 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 4 DLID 405.0 DLRS 3 DLAS On SDSA On OPOC "geniiops" OPE NEW O 1 "OCM1" 0.0 "_Dy tol" O 2 "OCM2" 0.0 "_2.1 Dy" O 3 "OCM3" 0.0 "_2.8 Dy" O 4 "OCM4" 0.0 "_3 Dy" O 5 "OCM5" 0.0 "_4 Dy" O 6 "OCM6" 0.0 "_up Dy/3" O 7 "OCM7" 0.0 "_3.2 up Dy" O 8 "OCM8" 0.0 "_Fnb tol" O 9 "OCM9/OCM8" 1.0 "Fnb diff" O 10 "OCM10/OCM4" 1.0 "Focus diff" O 11 "OCM11/OCM1" 1.0 "Axial DY" O 12 "OCM12/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial OPD" O 13 "OCM13/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial DMD" O 14 "OCM14" 0.0 "_0.7 Dstol" O 15 "OCM15" 0.0 "_0.7 Dist" O 16 "OCM15/OCM14" 1.0 "0.7 Dist" O 17 "OCM17/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 YFS" O 18 "OCM18/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 XFS" O 19 "OCM19/OCM7" 1.0 "0.7 Coma" O 20 "OCM20/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY U" O 21 "OCM21/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD U" O 22 "OCM22/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD U" O 23 "OCM23/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY L" O 24 "OCM24/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD L" O 25 "OCM25/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD L" O 26 "OCM26/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DX" O 27 "OCM27/OCM1" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DY" O 28 "OCM28/OCM6" 1.0 ".7 Sag OPD" O 29 "OCM29" 0.0 "_1.0 Dstol" O 30 "OCM30" 0.0 "_1.0 Dist" O 31 "OCM30/OCM29" 1.0 "1.0 Dist" O 32 "OCM32/OCM4" 1.0 "1.0 YFS" O 33 "OCM33/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 XFS" O 34 "OCM34/OCM7" 1.0 "1.0 Coma" O 35 "OCM35/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY U" O 36 "OCM36/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD U" O 37 "OCM37/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD U" O 38 "OCM38/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY L" O 39 "OCM39/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD L" O 40 "OCM40/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD L" O 41 "OCM41/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DX" O 42 "OCM42/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DY" O 43 "OCM43/OCM6" 1.0 "1 Sag OPD" O 44 "OCM44" 0.0 "_f1_fymax" O 45 "OCM45" 0.0 "_f2_fymin" O 46 "OCM46" 0.0 "_f2_fymax" O 47 "OCM47" 0.0 "_f2_fx" O 48 "OCM48" 0.0 "_f3_fymin" O 49 "OCM49" 0.0 "_f3_fymax" O 50 "OCM50" 0.0 "_f3_fx" END --Boundary_(ID_7zpaioXikK6LBvHIXbevKQ)-- From mikell@optonline.net Sat Apr 13 18:06:34 2002 Received: from mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.4]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3E06XD03965 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 18:06:33 -0600 Received: from there ([67.80.81.249]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with SMTP id <0GUJ003QN6ZAFV@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:06:32 -0400 From: Michael Lindner To: raytrace Message-id: <0GUJ003QO6ZAFV@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ORvviXOVrn2MtqqU52+jOA)" Subject: [Raytrace] How to Specify a Schmidt Corrector in Oslo? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --Boundary_(ID_ORvviXOVrn2MtqqU52+jOA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sorry if this is a duplicate - the first one I sent got held for the moderator, as apparently my list subscription had some trouble. So, I rejoined the list, and am resending the message. As an exercise in learning about Oslo, and about ray tracing in general, I am entering all the examples from Rutten and van Venrooij's book. I got all the way to the Schmidt camera, and find myself stymied. First off, R&V don't say which side of the corrector they put the figure on, but I don't believe it matters much (and in the drawing they provide, they show it on the inside). But my real problem lies in figuring out how to enter the parameter for teh schmidt corrector. R&V specify 3 numbers, A, B, and C, whcih they define in terms of Z = Ah^2 + Bh^4 + Ch^6 whereas Oslo has a radius of curvature and 4th, 6th, etc. order deformation coefficients. I translated the R&V parameters as follows: Since a parbola is defined by Z = h^2/2R I entered 2/A for the radius of curvature of the back side of the corrector (front is flat), made the back side a conic with a conic constant of -1 (parabola), and entered the "B" and "C" terms from R&V as the 4th and 6th order deformation coefficients. This produces a horrible design that doesn't even come close to decent performance. Am I doing it wrong? Attached is the Oslo file. -- Michael Lindner Personal Page http://home.att.net/~mikel S*T*A*R Astronomy Club http://www.starastronomy.org The ATM Site http://www.atmsite.org Telescope Making Web Ring http://www.crickrock.com/cgi-bin/webring/list.pl?ringid=TelescopeMaking ATM Mailing List (FAQ at http://home.attbi.com/~dcass/atmfaq/atm-faq.htm) --Boundary_(ID_ORvviXOVrn2MtqqU52+jOA) Content-type: text/x-c++; charset=iso-8859-1; name=schmidt-f3.len Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=schmidt-f3.len // OSLO 6.1 18726 16418 46625 LEN NEW "200mm Schmidt f/3" -599.22 4 EBR 100.0 GIH 20.0 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 SNO6 "geniierf_lt 0.0494835687547 25.0 1.00 -0.90 0.90 0.80 -0.80 0.80 0.70 1.0 1.0" // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 3.3376610369e+18 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 RD -2.40408e+05 TH 6.0 AP CHK 100.0 CC -1.0 AD 2.74057192e-10 AE 2.90241421e-16 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD 4.0e+23 TH 1200.0 AP 100.0 NXT // SRF 3 RFH TCE 0.0 RD -1200.0 TH -598.431 CC 7.6755 NXT // SRF 4 AIR RD -600.0 TH 11.149060415244 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 4 DLID 405.0 DLRS 3 DLAS On SDSA On OPOC "geniiops" OPE NEW O 1 "OCM1" 0.0 "_Dy tol" O 2 "OCM2" 0.0 "_2.1 Dy" O 3 "OCM3" 0.0 "_2.8 Dy" O 4 "OCM4" 0.0 "_3 Dy" O 5 "OCM5" 0.0 "_4 Dy" O 6 "OCM6" 0.0 "_up Dy/3" O 7 "OCM7" 0.0 "_3.2 up Dy" O 8 "OCM8" 0.0 "_Fnb tol" O 9 "OCM9/OCM8" 1.0 "Fnb diff" O 10 "OCM10/OCM4" 1.0 "Focus diff" O 11 "OCM11/OCM1" 1.0 "Axial DY" O 12 "OCM12/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial OPD" O 13 "OCM13/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial DMD" O 14 "OCM14" 0.0 "_0.7 Dstol" O 15 "OCM15" 0.0 "_0.7 Dist" O 16 "OCM15/OCM14" 1.0 "0.7 Dist" O 17 "OCM17/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 YFS" O 18 "OCM18/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 XFS" O 19 "OCM19/OCM7" 1.0 "0.7 Coma" O 20 "OCM20/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY U" O 21 "OCM21/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD U" O 22 "OCM22/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD U" O 23 "OCM23/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY L" O 24 "OCM24/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD L" O 25 "OCM25/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD L" O 26 "OCM26/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DX" O 27 "OCM27/OCM1" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DY" O 28 "OCM28/OCM6" 1.0 ".7 Sag OPD" O 29 "OCM29" 0.0 "_1.0 Dstol" O 30 "OCM30" 0.0 "_1.0 Dist" O 31 "OCM30/OCM29" 1.0 "1.0 Dist" O 32 "OCM32/OCM4" 1.0 "1.0 YFS" O 33 "OCM33/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 XFS" O 34 "OCM34/OCM7" 1.0 "1.0 Coma" O 35 "OCM35/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY U" O 36 "OCM36/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD U" O 37 "OCM37/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD U" O 38 "OCM38/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY L" O 39 "OCM39/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD L" O 40 "OCM40/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD L" O 41 "OCM41/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DX" O 42 "OCM42/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DY" O 43 "OCM43/OCM6" 1.0 "1 Sag OPD" O 44 "OCM44" 0.0 "_f1_fymax" O 45 "OCM45" 0.0 "_f2_fymin" O 46 "OCM46" 0.0 "_f2_fymax" O 47 "OCM47" 0.0 "_f2_fx" O 48 "OCM48" 0.0 "_f3_fymin" O 49 "OCM49" 0.0 "_f3_fymax" O 50 "OCM50" 0.0 "_f3_fx" END --Boundary_(ID_ORvviXOVrn2MtqqU52+jOA)-- From mikell@optonline.net Sat Apr 13 21:43:01 2002 Received: from mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.22]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3E3h1D04486 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:43:01 -0600 Received: from there (ool-435051f9.dyn.optonline.net [67.80.81.249]) by mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with SMTP id <0GUJ001B9GZN9C@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:42:41 -0400 From: Michael Lindner To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Message-id: <0GUJ001BKGZN9C@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_6Obj7ta2837j1VhvGW1I1A)" Subject: [Raytrace] Re: How to Specify a Schmidt Corrector in Oslo? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --Boundary_(ID_6Obj7ta2837j1VhvGW1I1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Duh! Somehow I had inadvertently set a conic constant of 7.something for the primary! When that was removed, all is well. Corrected file is attached, as shows the expected performance. Thanks to Rick Snashall for making me go back and look at the data I had entered. -- Michael Lindner Personal Page http://home.att.net/~mikel S*T*A*R Astronomy Club http://www.starastronomy.org The ATM Site http://www.atmsite.org Telescope Making Web Ring http://www.crickrock.com/cgi-bin/webring/list.pl?ringid=TelescopeMaking ATM Mailing List (FAQ at http://home.attbi.com/~dcass/atmfaq/atm-faq.htm) --Boundary_(ID_6Obj7ta2837j1VhvGW1I1A) Content-type: text/x-c++; charset=iso-8859-1; name=schmidt-f3.len Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=schmidt-f3.len // OSLO 6.1 51370 16418 58926 LEN NEW "200mm Schmidt f/3" -601.55 4 EBR 100.0 GIH 20.0 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 SNO6 "geniierf_lt 0.0494835687547 25.0 1.00 -0.90 0.90 0.80 -0.80 0.80 0.70 1.0 1.0" // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 3.324734422e+18 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 RD 4.0e+23 TH 6.0 AP CHK 100.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD -1.2020128783e+05 TH 1200.0 AP 100.0 CC -1.0 AD 2.74057192e-10 AE 2.90241421e-16 NXT // SRF 3 RFH TCE 0.0 RD -1200.0 TH -598.431 NXT // SRF 4 AIR RD -600.0 TH -0.0000254667219 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 4 DLID 405.0 DLRS 3 DLAS On SDSA On OPDF 1.0e-08 OPOC "geniiops" VAR NEW V 1 1 0 CV 0.0 0.0 1.0 1.0e-06 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM1" 0.0 "_Dy tol" O 2 "OCM2" 0.0 "_2.1 Dy" O 3 "OCM3" 0.0 "_2.8 Dy" O 4 "OCM4" 0.0 "_3 Dy" O 5 "OCM5" 0.0 "_4 Dy" O 6 "OCM6" 0.0 "_up Dy/3" O 7 "OCM7" 0.0 "_3.2 up Dy" O 8 "OCM8" 0.0 "_Fnb tol" O 9 "OCM9/OCM8" 1.0 "Fnb diff" O 10 "OCM10/OCM4" 1.0 "Focus diff" O 11 "OCM11/OCM1" 1.0 "Axial DY" O 12 "OCM12/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial OPD" O 13 "OCM13/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial DMD" O 14 "OCM14" 0.0 "_0.7 Dstol" O 15 "OCM15" 0.0 "_0.7 Dist" O 16 "OCM15/OCM14" 1.0 "0.7 Dist" O 17 "OCM17/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 YFS" O 18 "OCM18/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 XFS" O 19 "OCM19/OCM7" 1.0 "0.7 Coma" O 20 "OCM20/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY U" O 21 "OCM21/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD U" O 22 "OCM22/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD U" O 23 "OCM23/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY L" O 24 "OCM24/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD L" O 25 "OCM25/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD L" O 26 "OCM26/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DX" O 27 "OCM27/OCM1" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DY" O 28 "OCM28/OCM6" 1.0 ".7 Sag OPD" O 29 "OCM29" 0.0 "_1.0 Dstol" O 30 "OCM30" 0.0 "_1.0 Dist" O 31 "OCM30/OCM29" 1.0 "1.0 Dist" O 32 "OCM32/OCM4" 1.0 "1.0 YFS" O 33 "OCM33/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 XFS" O 34 "OCM34/OCM7" 1.0 "1.0 Coma" O 35 "OCM35/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY U" O 36 "OCM36/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD U" O 37 "OCM37/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD U" O 38 "OCM38/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY L" O 39 "OCM39/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD L" O 40 "OCM40/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD L" O 41 "OCM41/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DX" O 42 "OCM42/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DY" O 43 "OCM43/OCM6" 1.0 "1 Sag OPD" O 44 "OCM44" 0.0 "_f1_fymax" O 45 "OCM45" 0.0 "_f2_fymin" O 46 "OCM46" 0.0 "_f2_fymax" O 47 "OCM47" 0.0 "_f2_fx" O 48 "OCM48" 0.0 "_f3_fymin" O 49 "OCM49" 0.0 "_f3_fymax" O 50 "OCM50" 0.0 "_f3_fx" END --Boundary_(ID_6Obj7ta2837j1VhvGW1I1A)-- From klowther@cisnet.com Sat Apr 13 22:04:51 2002 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3E44oD04572 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:04:51 -0600 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4135.cisnet.com [207.17.248.135]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id ; Sun, 14 Apr 2002 00:04:49 -0400 Message-ID: <3CB8FFE2.7A229256@cisnet.com> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 00:04:50 -0400 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-6mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lindner CC: raytrace Subject: Re: [Raytrace] How to Specify a Schmidt Corrector in Oslo? References: <0GUI004HWTHUHN@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Michael Lindner wrote: > > First off, R&V don't say which side of the corrector they put the figure on, > but I don't believe it matters much (and in the drawing they provide, they > show it on the inside). Actually when making one, it believe it is best to do BOTH sides of the corrector. If one is flat you get ghost image reflections. I looked into this a while back, but it is behind "get lathe back together". Actually a lot of projects depend on that. As I recall, half per side is good, but 1/4 and 3/4 was considered optimal. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From mikell@optonline.net Sun Apr 14 19:34:19 2002 Received: from mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.23]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g3F1YID07505 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 2002 19:34:19 -0600 Received: from there (ool-435051f9.dyn.optonline.net [67.80.81.249]) by mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with SMTP id <0GUL00L4W5MWX8@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:34:14 -0400 From: Michael Lindner To: raytrace Message-id: <0GUL00L4X5MWX8@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_RxUkT2U1d3xuvE4T9Gittw)" Subject: [Raytrace] More Schmidt woes Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --Boundary_(ID_RxUkT2U1d3xuvE4T9Gittw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I got all the way to the next example (schmidt cassegrain). This time I had to do a whole bunch of math. The prescription they give simply says: Paraxial Radius of corrector -45029 Radius of neutral zone 86.6 Relative power 83.42% Radius of Primary -817.465 Using these numbers and the 2 pages of equations in Chapter 20, I was able to come up with the following numbers for the coefficients: A = -1.11071229e-5 B = 2.30531e-10 C = 3.442062e-14 and plugging "A" back into R = 1/2A I get -45012 as the radius of corrector, from which I assumed my numbers were correct (I also checked the program I wrote to generate them several times). Plugging these numbers into Oslo, I get yet another horrible performing scope (spot sizes of 1mm). Oslo also claims the f/ratio of the system is 14, while the prescription says f/10. So, I obviously set something wrong (again). Can someone tell me where I screwed up? File is attached. Thanks in advance for your time and patience with the newbie. -- Michael Lindner Personal Page http://home.att.net/~mikel S*T*A*R Astronomy Club http://www.starastronomy.org The ATM Site http://www.atmsite.org Telescope Making Web Ring http://www.crickrock.com/cgi-bin/webring/list.pl?ringid=TelescopeMaking ATM Mailing List (FAQ at http://home.attbi.com/~dcass/atmfaq/atm-faq.htm) --Boundary_(ID_RxUkT2U1d3xuvE4T9Gittw) Content-type: text/x-c++; charset=iso-8859-1; name=schmidt-cassegrain-f10.len Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=schmidt-cassegrain-f10.len // OSLO 6.1 20317 16418 13935 LEN NEW "200mm Schmidt Cassegrain f/10" 2906.6 5 EBR 100.0 GIH 20.0 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 SNO6 "geniierf_lt 0.0494835687547 25.0 1.00 -0.90 0.90 0.80 -0.80 0.80 0.70 1.0 1.0" // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 6.8809796545e+17 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 TH 4.0 AP CHK 100.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD -45029.0 TH 312.5 AP 100.0 CC -1.0 AD 2.30531e-10 AE 3.442062e-14 NXT // SRF 3 RFH TCE 0.0 RD -817.4649999999999 TH -305.5 NXT // SRF 4 RFH RD -235.75 TH 503.06 CC -0.8857 NXT // SRF 5 AIR RD -157.6 TH 201.5118211193835 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 5 DLID 405.0 DLRS 3 DLAS On SDSA On OPDF 6.158e-07 OPOC "geniiops" VAR NEW V 1 2 0 AD 0.0 0.0 1.0 1.1e-12 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM1" 0.0 "_Dy tol" O 2 "OCM2" 0.0 "_2.1 Dy" O 3 "OCM3" 0.0 "_2.8 Dy" O 4 "OCM4" 0.0 "_3 Dy" O 5 "OCM5" 0.0 "_4 Dy" O 6 "OCM6" 0.0 "_up Dy/3" O 7 "OCM7" 0.0 "_3.2 up Dy" O 8 "OCM8" 0.0 "_Fnb tol" O 9 "OCM9/OCM8" 1.0 "Fnb diff" O 10 "OCM10/OCM4" 1.0 "Focus diff" O 11 "OCM11/OCM1" 1.0 "Axial DY" O 12 "OCM12/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial OPD" O 13 "OCM13/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial DMD" O 14 "OCM14" 0.0 "_0.7 Dstol" O 15 "OCM15" 0.0 "_0.7 Dist" O 16 "OCM15/OCM14" 1.0 "0.7 Dist" O 17 "OCM17/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 YFS" O 18 "OCM18/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 XFS" O 19 "OCM19/OCM7" 1.0 "0.7 Coma" O 20 "OCM20/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY U" O 21 "OCM21/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD U" O 22 "OCM22/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD U" O 23 "OCM23/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY L" O 24 "OCM24/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD L" O 25 "OCM25/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD L" O 26 "OCM26/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DX" O 27 "OCM27/OCM1" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DY" O 28 "OCM28/OCM6" 1.0 ".7 Sag OPD" O 29 "OCM29" 0.0 "_1.0 Dstol" O 30 "OCM30" 0.0 "_1.0 Dist" O 31 "OCM30/OCM29" 1.0 "1.0 Dist" O 32 "OCM32/OCM4" 1.0 "1.0 YFS" O 33 "OCM33/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 XFS" O 34 "OCM34/OCM7" 1.0 "1.0 Coma" O 35 "OCM35/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY U" O 36 "OCM36/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD U" O 37 "OCM37/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD U" O 38 "OCM38/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY L" O 39 "OCM39/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD L" O 40 "OCM40/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD L" O 41 "OCM41/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DX" O 42 "OCM42/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DY" O 43 "OCM43/OCM6" 1.0 "1 Sag OPD" O 44 "OCM44" 0.0 "_f1_fymax" O 45 "OCM45" 0.0 "_f2_fymin" O 46 "OCM46" 0.0 "_f2_fymax" O 47 "OCM47" 0.0 "_f2_fx" O 48 "OCM48" 0.0 "_f3_fymin" O 49 "OCM49" 0.0 "_f3_fymax" O 50 "OCM50" 0.0 "_f3_fx" END --Boundary_(ID_RxUkT2U1d3xuvE4T9Gittw)-- From mikell@optonline.net Tue Apr 30 21:30:05 2002 Received: from mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.23]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g413U4D00770 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 21:30:04 -0600 Received: from there (ool-435051f9.dyn.optonline.net [67.80.81.249]) by mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with SMTP id <0GVE008J6XPV0N@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 23:30:02 -0400 From: Michael Lindner To: raytrace Message-id: <0GVE008J8XPV0N@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_fXvvD1/pA6vLKLsI05aVVg)" Subject: [Raytrace] Yet More Oslo Questions Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --Boundary_(ID_fXvvD1/pA6vLKLsI05aVVg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT OK, I'm starting to model eyepieces...starting with the Huygens eyepiece given on page 168 of R&V (1988 edition). How does one specify that the focal plane (object) is to the right of the first surface? I tried setting the object thickness to a negative number, but the rays in the drawing now appear to stop at the second surface, and I think I've specified something wrong. I find nothing in the documentation or help about virtual objects or images....any clues? Thanks. File is attached. -- Michael Lindner ATM Site http://www.atmsite.org TM Web Ring http://www.crickrock.com/cgi-bin/webring/list.pl?ringid=TelescopeMaking ATM Mailing List (FAQ at http://home.attbi.com/~dcass/atmfaq/atm-faq.htm) --Boundary_(ID_fXvvD1/pA6vLKLsI05aVVg) Content-type: text/x-c++; charset=iso-8859-1; name=huygenian-ep-f5.5-flat.len Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: attachment; filename=huygenian-ep-f5.5-flat.len // OSLO 6.1 1541 0 58671 LEN NEW "Huygenian Eyepiece f/5 flat" 0 6 EBR 20.0 ANG 0.1 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH -49.53 AP 0.0864462456281 NXT // SRF 1 GLA SK2 RD 91.6 TH 16.8 AP CHK 20.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR TH 32.73 PK AP -1 NXT // SRF 3 AIR TH 68.27 AP 10.0 AST NXT // SRF 4 PK GLA -3 RD 45.8 TH 7.2 PK AP -3 NXT // SRF 5 AIR PK AP -4 NXT // SRF 6 AIR PK AP -5 AFO 1 CBK 1 AMO ANG WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 6 DLID 20.0 DLFD 20.0 DLRS 2 DLAS On SDSA On --Boundary_(ID_fXvvD1/pA6vLKLsI05aVVg)-- From wa4guu@bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 3 04:57:46 2002 Received: from pop015.verizon.net (pop015pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.172]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g73AvjU02517 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 04:57:45 -0600 Received: from bellatlantic.net ([151.199.132.18]) by pop015.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.09 201-253-122-126-109-20020611) with ESMTP id <20020803105416.RWCG2139.pop015.verizon.net@bellatlantic.net> for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 05:54:16 -0500 Message-ID: <3D4BB5CD.8C50669E@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 06:51:57 -0400 From: "Jerald F. Wright" Reply-To: wa4guu@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] New Here Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hello to the group. I'm Jerry Wright. Just found this group and looks interesting. I've made a 4" f16 doublet using wyld's chapter in ATM3 as a guide. Used a calculator first but later wrote a program in BASIC for the raytrace. The lens works good! Want to make a triplet now and have an old brass telescope tube with no lens, and think I might be able to fit a 5" in it. I've played with OSLO-LT and gotten lucky with some designs, but really don't have a clue what I'm doing. Seems easier with those glasses that I'd never be able to afford...but maybe I'll eventually come up with a poor man's triplet. I'm going to keep it long... f15 or so... dont want to cut that pretty antique tube. Jerry From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 22 13:01:02 2002 Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7MJ11U05004 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:01:02 -0600 Received: from sdn-ap-004ilchicp0110.dialsprint.net ([63.184.160.110] helo=peck2.ix.netcom.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17hx8O-0005Ik-00; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:56:46 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822132934.00a9b8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 13:55:08 -0500 To: atm@shore.net, "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" From: Michael Peck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] OSLO LT works under wine on linux Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Thought I'd pass this along for the benefit of anyone who can't stand the thought of using Mr. Gates' products but can't find an optical design program for another platform. The subject header pretty much says it all. I gave OSLO LT 6.1 a try under wine on RedHat Linux running on an x86 box and it ran. I did not test it thoroughly but everything I tried worked. I did *not* use the installer that you download from the Sinclair optics site. Instead I copied the program directory and all subdirectories from a working Windows installation to a directory on my Linux partition. I then cd to the directory containing olight.exe and type wine olight.exe (this is from an X terminal window). After several hundred lines of error messages scroll by up comes OSLO LT with pretty much the exact look and performance as on Windows. Wine was installed as part of the initial Linux installation and I did nothing to configure it. I'm a complete Linux newbie [well not quite after spending a week getting it installed and more or less working], so don't ask me how to make it work. I think wine only runs on x86 machines so Mac owners presumably will have to look elsewhere. And in case anyone wonders, no I haven't joined a cult. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From ron.standage@asml.com Thu Aug 22 23:45:30 2002 Received: from pollux.asml.nl (ns.asml.nl [195.109.200.66]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g7N5jSU05804 for ; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:45:29 -0600 Received: from creon.asml.nl (creon [146.106.1.223]) by pollux.asml.nl (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19207; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:41:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from titan.asml.nl (titan [146.106.1.9]) by creon.asml.nl (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g7N5fAD24982; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:41:10 +0200 (MEST) Received: from asml.com ([146.106.5.65]) by titan.asml.nl (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09805; Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:41:08 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3D65CAF3.3DFCD501@asml.com> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:41:07 -0700 From: Ron Standage Organization: ASML X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-ASML_2P06S (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Peck CC: atm@shore.net, "raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822132934.00a9b8e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B53EF4BFF00CDFF8B49C9260" Subject: [Raytrace] Re: ATM OSLO LT works under wine on linux Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B53EF4BFF00CDFF8B49C9260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael, This is very good news. I am collecting reasons for dumping XP from my laptop and doing everything on Linux. Thank you very much! Ron Michael Peck wrote: > > Thought I'd pass this along for the benefit of anyone who can't stand the > thought of using Mr. Gates' products but can't find an optical design > program for another platform. > > The subject header pretty much says it all. I gave OSLO LT 6.1 a try under > wine on RedHat Linux running on an x86 box and it ran. I did not test it > thoroughly but everything I tried worked. I did *not* use the installer > that you download from the Sinclair optics site. Instead I copied the > program directory and all subdirectories from a working Windows > installation to a directory on my Linux partition. I then cd to the > directory containing olight.exe and type wine olight.exe (this is from an X > terminal window). After several hundred lines of error messages scroll by > up comes OSLO LT with pretty much the exact look and performance as on Windows. > > Wine was installed as part of the initial Linux installation and I did > nothing to configure it. I'm a complete Linux newbie [well not quite after > spending a week getting it installed and more or less working], so don't > ask me how to make it work. I think wine only runs on x86 machines so Mac > owners presumably will have to look elsewhere. And in case anyone wonders, > no I haven't joined a cult. > > Mike Peck > > _________________ > > Michael Peck > email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com > Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html > Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html --------------B53EF4BFF00CDFF8B49C9260 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="ron.standage.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ron Standage Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ron.standage.vcf" begin:vcard n:Standage;Ronald tel;work:480-383-4742 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.asml.com org:ASML;U.S. Training adr:;;8555 South River Parkway;Tempe;Arizona;85284;USA version:2.1 email;internet:ronald.standage@asml.com title:Technical Applications Instructor fn:Ron Standage end:vcard --------------B53EF4BFF00CDFF8B49C9260-- From rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us Mon Sep 2 07:56:05 2002 Received: from pop2.greatbasin.net (pop2.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.4]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g82Du4U25112 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 07:56:05 -0600 Received: from nnps.reno.nv.us (nnps.gbis.com [207.228.2.242]) by pop2.greatbasin.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g82DpPit024166 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 06:51:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3D736C42.9816C3F0@nnps.reno.nv.us> Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 06:48:50 -0700 From: Robbin Palmer Reply-To: rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Dall Null for 22" f4.5 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I set up a Dall Null test in OSLO Lt per John's instructions and found 0.15 wave error in the wavefront using an f = 300 mm, d = 66 mm plano convex lens. Then I tilted the mirror 1.7 degrees as it would be in a real setup to avoid interference of the lens with the light reflected from the mirror and bring the focus over to the knife edge, reoptimized and refocused. The wavefront error jumped to 20 waves! Did the same thing for 0.5 degree, error of 1.8 waves. Looks to me like I can't use this test. Am I doing something wrong? From jd-upton@texas.net Mon Sep 2 11:58:09 2002 Received: from mw3.texas.net (mw3.texas.net [206.127.30.13]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g82Hw9U25453 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:58:09 -0600 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet00-51.austin.texas.net [209.99.42.240]) by mw3.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g82HrRY10184; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 12:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020902113906.01ce6a60@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 12:52:27 -0500 To: rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us, raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null for 22" f4.5 In-Reply-To: <3D736C42.9816C3F0@nnps.reno.nv.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Robbin, At 06:48 AM 9/2/2002 -0700, Robbin Palmer wrote: >I set up a Dall Null test in OSLO Lt per John's instructions and found >0.15 wave error in the wavefront using an f = 300 mm, d = 66 mm plano >convex lens. Then I tilted the mirror 1.7 degrees as it would be in a >real setup to avoid interference of the lens with the light reflected >from the mirror and bring the focus over to the knife edge, reoptimized >and refocused. The wavefront error jumped to 20 waves! Did the same >thing for 0.5 degree, error of 1.8 waves. Looks to me like I can't use >this test. Am I doing something wrong? You have not done anything wrong in the setup. OSLO-LT is unfortunately telling us exactly what was asked. You are seeing the effects of astigmatism in the test since it is being done off-axis. The wave-front error being reported includes the light from the whole mirror. There are two ways around this dilemma. The first is to use a beam-splitter so that the Null Test may be conducted completely on axis. This is often not possible if we want a simple setup for amateur use. The other way around the problem is to simply ignore it as much as possible. When the return image is either over or under the pinhole but off axis, the astigmatism will appear along the vertical axis of the mirror. Since the knife edge cuts into the beam 90 degrees from that axis, we can train our eye to ignore the astigmatic effects and concentrate on the horizontal axis only. Imagine a mask on the mirror that only shows a swath 50 mm high across the center of the mirror. We watch this band for a null condition as the knife edge cuts into the returning beam. We can actually train our eyes to pay attention to that part of the mirror without using a mask. You might want to try a mask until you are comfortable concentrating on the centered horizontal null area only. To see how large or small a mask (or just visual swath) might need to be, try this in OSLO-LT. Open your Dall Null file and click on the Aperture Radius button for the mirror. Select "Special Aperture Data (X)." For "Type", select Rectangle. For "Action", select Transmit. Now, enter the aperture data. For X min and X max, enter the radius of your mirror, -279.4 and +279.4, respectively. For Y min and Y max, enter -25.0 and +25.0, respectively. Close the dialog. You now have a mask across the center of the mirror which is 50 mm high. Refocus and check the wave-front error. You should find some more reasonable numbers now. You can play with the height of the mask to see how large or small an area you need to watch when nulling the mirror with your off-axis setup. If the numbers are still unacceptably high for you, you will have to use a beam-splitter or choose another test. Note that the Ross Test could be a little better, but will still be off-axis for many setups. Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us Wed Sep 4 13:46:06 2002 Received: from pop1.greatbasin.net (pop1.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.3]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84Jk6U29355 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:46:06 -0600 Received: from nnps.reno.nv.us (nnps.gbis.com [207.228.2.242]) by pop1.greatbasin.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g84JfKrR004422 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:41:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3D766146.5CDE353E@nnps.reno.nv.us> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 12:38:46 -0700 From: Robbin Palmer Reply-To: rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Raytrace] Dall Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Regarding 22” f/4.5 Dall Null: I made a math error in calculating the angle the null lens must be offset from the axis to clear the return beam. Depending on the mirror f number and lens used, the angle is typically between 0.5 and 0.2 degree. This still greatly increases the wavefront error relative to the on axis case. A lens placed 0.24 degree off axis adds enough astigmatism to increase the wavefront error by about a factor of 5 compared to the on axis case. Larger f number mirrors are required to give small offset angles. For example, the 25” f/6 mirror described by Kestner in Kriege and Berry would result in an offset angle of about 0.24 degree for the f=10 inch null lens used, assuming a lens diameter of 2 inch. On axis, the wavefront error would be about 0.07 wave, off axis 0.24 dgree it is about 0.37 wave (His actual setup may do better than this as I don’t know the exact lens diameter used). This could be improved somewhat by bringing the lens back even with the knife edge where the returning cone of light is of smallest diameter so that the offset angle can be reduced. This puts the light source back past the knife edge and makes viewing more difficult. Perhaps a small flat mirror behind the knife edge could be used to deflect the knife edge image out to the side. I tried turning the lens around per John’s tutorial, and got the error down to a little over 1/10th wave, but this requires a larger entrance aperature and thus larger offset angle. If it is assumed that the lens is good across 90% of its diameter then this setup gives about 0.4 wave error with the lens off axis. Since the null lens placed this way has larger spherical aberation and coma than when turned around, I tried a concave convex lens since it has even larger spherical aberation, and varied the two radii of curvature with a slider bar while optimizing. This gave improvement, but an insignificant amount. With regard to John’s suggestion of viewing a rectangular strip across the mirror to reduce wavefront error: The center point of the wavefront I get with the pinhole and lens off axis is a saddlepoint. Moving in +/- x the slope decreases, +/-y the slope increases (depending on the direction you tilt). The max in y is on the same order as the min in x. So instead of placing the rectangle along x or y, it must be placed at an angle for the least wavefront error. If the off axis error is on the order of 2 waves, then it can be brought down to a useful level using a rectangular strip of about 1” or less height. The strip reduces the error by a factor of ten or so – somewhat more of course for smaller heights. I feel like I have tried about everything. Anything I have missed? Thanks for your help John. OSLO is a wonderful tool to have. Tom W. (Robbin P. in earlier posting due to using my wife’s email) From jd-upton@texas.net Wed Sep 4 17:59:09 2002 Received: from mw1.texas.net (mw1.texas.net [206.127.30.11]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g84Nx9U29701 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 17:59:09 -0600 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet07-36.austin.texas.net [209.99.35.99]) by mw1.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g84NsIL27820; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:54:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020904184304.01ceca10@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 18:50:47 -0500 To: rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us, raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null In-Reply-To: <3D766146.5CDE353E@nnps.reno.nv.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by blackhole.idcomm.com id g84Nx9U29701 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tom, Sorry for the name confusion. At 12:38 PM 9/4/2002 -0700, Robbin Palmer wrote: >With regard to John’s suggestion of viewing a rectangular strip across >the mirror to reduce wavefront error: The center point of the wavefront >I get with the pinhole and lens off axis is a saddlepoint. Moving in >+/- x the slope decreases, +/-y the slope increases (depending on the >direction you tilt). The max in y is on the same order as the min in >x. So instead of placing the rectangle along x or y, it must be placed >at an angle for the least wavefront error. If the off axis error is on >the order of 2 waves, then it can be brought down to a useful level >using a rectangular strip of about 1” or less height. The strip reduces >the error by a factor of ten or so ­ somewhat more of course for smaller >heights. I feel like I have tried about everything. Anything I have >missed? Thanks for your help John. OSLO is a wonderful tool to have. We may have set up the tilts a little differently. Also, I assumed a 4mm center thickness for the lens. I didn't recall you specifying that. It may make a small difference. Here is the OSLO-LT file I ended up with. It looks to me like the test is usable for this mirror but, again, you will need to visually ignore the very top and bottom of the astigmatic image. For a 2" high mask, I get a null of about 1/10 wave on the wavefront (~0.95 Strehl) across the saddle without having to tilt the mask along a diagonal of the mirror. OLSO-LT File: ====================== // OSLO 6.1 58827 49397 7379 LEN NEW "22 Inch F:4.5 Dall Null tilt 0.5" 386.36 4 EBR 18.0138770724419 ANG 0.0000572957795 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH 157.8418700893456 AP 0.0001578418701 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 RD 156.4029023110757 TH 4.0 NXT // SRF 2 AIR TH 4784.2970976889228 NXT // SRF 3 RFH RD -5029.1999999999989 PY 0.0 CC -1.0 DT 1 TLA 0.5 APN 1 AY1 A -25.0 AY2 A 25.0 AX1 A -279.4 AX2 A 279.4 ATP A 2 AAC A 4 NXT // SRF 4 AIR TH -0.5293006138251 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 4 OPDF 1.0e-08 VAR NEW V 1 0 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0018013877072 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM41" 1.0 "" END ============================== Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us Wed Sep 4 21:47:06 2002 Received: from pop2.greatbasin.net (pop2.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.4]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g853l5U29998 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:47:05 -0600 Received: from nnps.reno.nv.us (nnps.gbis.com [207.228.2.242]) by pop2.greatbasin.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g853gJit006893 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 20:42:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3D76D201.A40874C3@nnps.reno.nv.us> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 20:39:45 -0700 From: Robbin Palmer Reply-To: rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Dall Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I also got 1/10 wave - RMS - not P-V. I got 0.15 P-V with the nulling lens on axis, no mask. Does this agree with your result? I understood everything in your data but the PY 0.0 - what is that? Tom W. From jd-upton@texas.net Thu Sep 5 16:37:50 2002 Received: from mg02.austin.ibm.com (mg02.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g85MboU31469 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 16:37:50 -0600 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail2.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.139]) by mg02.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA51358 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:34:34 -0500 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA69440 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:33:02 -0500 Received: from IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.texas.net (IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.dynamic.austin.ibm.com [9.41.184.197] (may be forged)) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id RAA26020 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:33:02 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20020905173123.03039f00@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 17:32:44 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null In-Reply-To: <3D76D201.A40874C3@nnps.reno.nv.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tom, At 08:39 PM 9/4/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I also got 1/10 wave - RMS - not P-V. I got 0.15 P-V with the nulling >lens on axis, no mask. Does this agree with your result? I understood >everything in your data but the PY 0.0 - what is that? Tom W. No, the file I posted shows me a 0.110 wave PV and 0.037 wave RMS on the wavefront. Copy the text of the file I posted into a *.len file on your system and open it up. See what it says when you run an "spd" command. There may be something odd going on here. I have sometimes confused OSLO-LT enough that it gives obviously "left field" results until I re-enter all the data. Has anyone else built a model based on Tom's description and gotten something different? Here is the text prescription I used: 22 Inch F:4.5 Dall Null tilt 0.5 SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 157.841870 V 0.000158 AIR AST 156.402902 4.000000 18.013877 AS BK7 C 2 -- 4.7843e+03 18.157875 S AIR 3 -5.0292e+03 -4.9445e+03 S 279.400000 SX REFL_HATCH * IMS -- -0.529301 0.030227 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 3 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- *TILT/DECENTER DATA 3 DT 1 DCX -- DCY -- DCZ -- TLA 0.500000 TLB -- TLC -- Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From tomofreno2000@yahoo.com Thu Sep 5 20:04:34 2002 Received: from web10107.mail.yahoo.com (web10107.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.57]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g8624XU31745 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:04:33 -0600 Message-ID: <20020906015946.26151.qmail@web10107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.228.2.242] by web10107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 18:59:46 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 18:59:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wicker To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Raytrace] Dall Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I entered the data from the last file you sent and got 0.1281 P-V wavefront error. Considerably better than I had, but not the number you got. Here is the lens text file from my setup: *LENS DATA No name SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 157.841869 V 0.000158 AIR AST 156.402900 4.000000 18.013874 AS BK7 C 2 -- 4.7843e+03 18.157872 S AIR 3 -5.0292e+03 -4.9445e+03 S 279.399954 SX REFL_HATCH * IMS -- -0.751790 0.042799 S It is almost exactly the same as yours. Troubling that I didn't get the same result. Can you think of any reason for this? Other data was: cc = 1 DT = 1 TLA = 0.5 APN = 1 ay1 = -25 ay2 = 25 ax1 = -279.4 ax2 = 279.4 ATP = 2 AAC = 4 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From jd-upton@texas.net Fri Sep 6 06:10:19 2002 Received: from mg02.austin.ibm.com (mg02.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g86CAIU32527 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:10:18 -0600 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail2.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.139]) by mg02.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA46998 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:06:56 -0500 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA36010 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:05:23 -0500 Received: from IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.texas.net (IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.dynamic.austin.ibm.com [9.41.184.197] (may be forged)) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id HAA35772 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:05:22 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20020906070233.02e9c500@popmail.austin.ibm.com> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:04:58 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tom, At 06:59 PM 9/5/2002 -0700, you wrote: > IMS -- -0.751790 0.042799 S > >It is almost exactly the same as yours. Troubling that >I didn't get the same result. Can you think of any >reason for this? The only significant difference I see is the image surface distance. Try refocussing for "Minimum On-axis RMS OPD (Monochromatic)" and see what you get. If that still shows differing results, try manually setting the image surface distance from -0.751790 to -0.529301 and check the wavefront again. If anything, you should be seeing a slightly *better* wavefront error than I because the beam doesn't quite cover the whole mirror in your set-up. I am at a loss to explain why OSLO seems to behave differently on our systems. I cut the file from my 04 Sep 2002 18:50:47 post and tried it on a couple of other systems. I get identical results on all. Which level of OSLO-LT are you using? My file was done with version 6.04. Anyone else have any ideas? Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Fri Sep 6 06:27:47 2002 Received: from mg02.austin.ibm.com (mg02.austin.ibm.com [192.35.232.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g86CRlU32568 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 06:27:47 -0600 Received: from austin.ibm.com (netmail2.austin.ibm.com [9.3.7.139]) by mg02.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA33446; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:24:29 -0500 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.53.247.178]) by austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA62294; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:22:58 -0500 Received: from IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.texas.net (IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.dynamic.austin.ibm.com [9.41.184.197] (may be forged)) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id HAA34226; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:22:56 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20020906070504.02fb26c8@popmail.austin.ibm.com> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:22:32 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] Retraction Of OSLO 6.X Missing Function Complaint Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List Members, Several months ago, I made a comment on the list about one of my favorite OSLO-LT functions being missing from version 6.X. In version 5.4, I use the Scale function quite a bit. I had not been able to get it to work in version 6.04. In recent days while playing with OSLO-LT, I stumbled onto the Scale function. It is still present in the 6.X versions of OSLO. It is just no longer on the edit menu. I don't know why it seems to have been removed as a command line command, but at least it is still available. The Scale function is available on the pop-up menu when you right-click in the lens spreadsheet. Both forms of the function are available as the last option on the pop-up. There is a scale to new focal length and scale by constant. The scale by constant is the feature I used most in version 5.4. It is great for entering lens set-ups with mixed unit specifications. The current thread on setting up the Dall Null test for a 22" mirror is one example. You can enter the mirror values in English units and then scale the lens by the constant 25.4. Now all the units are in millimeters and you can enter the lens specifications directly. If you want to convert back, just enter 1/25.4 in the scale by constant dialog box. (Remember to set the correct units in General Operating Conditions box before running a wavefront analysis.) Of course, there are other ways to convert and enter units but I find the scale function very convenient for this sort of thing. Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From tomofreno2000@yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 08:43:45 2002 Received: from web10103.mail.yahoo.com (web10103.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.53]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g86EhjU32761 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:43:45 -0600 Message-ID: <20020906143856.9526.qmail@web10103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.228.2.242] by web10103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 07:38:56 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 07:38:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wicker To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Raytrace] Dall Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: That was it! I refocused using min RMS OPD monochromatic and got 0.1037 P-V. I had been using focus to minimum spot size monochromatic. I also had noticed previously that the wavefront error had a minimum wrt null lens angle off axis (TLA). It decreased from 0.5 degree to a min at 1 degree then increased. Thought this was very strange. After focusing with min RMS OPD. I checked this, and now I get a smoothly increasing wavefront error with offset angle, no minimum as I would expect. What is the difference in these two focusing techniques? I'm using version 6.1. Thanks for your help! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From tomofreno2000@yahoo.com Fri Sep 6 10:38:02 2002 Received: from web10108.mail.yahoo.com (web10108.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.58]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g86Gc1U00467 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:38:01 -0600 Message-ID: <20020906163312.38560.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.228.2.242] by web10108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:33:12 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:33:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wicker To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Raytrace] Dall Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I have noticed something else I don't understand. When you right click the surface data spreadsheet and scale to convert from mm to inch or vice versa, the P-V OPD in the wavefront graphics window scales by the same factor. For example, if you convert from mm to inch the P-V OPD goes down by a factor of 25.4. I thought P-V OPD was given in fractions of wavelength. If so it shouldn't change with spreadsheet units. One other thing. If I read out the wavefront data to the text window the P-V OPD and RMS OPD are slightly different (larger) than what is shown in the graphics window. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From klowther@cisnet.com Fri Sep 6 15:25:18 2002 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [204.179.144.161]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g86LPGU00854 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:25:18 -0600 Received: from cisnet.com (pm4132.cisnet.com [207.17.248.132]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:20:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3D791C4E.18722BE3@cisnet.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:21:18 -0400 From: Hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-6mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John D. Upton" CC: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Retraction Of OSLO 6.X Missing Function Complaint References: <4.3.1.0.20020906070504.02fb26c8@popmail.austin.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: "John D. Upton" wrote: > > > > In recent days while playing with OSLO-LT, I stumbled onto the Scale > function. It is still present in the 6.X versions of OSLO. It is just no > longer on the edit menu. I don't know why it seems to have been removed as > a command line command, but at least it is still available. > > This goes for a lot of software. They take out the documentation, but not the function. -- Ken Lowther Youngstown, Ohio http://www.atmsite.org http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/atmswap http://www.atmsite.org/mailman/listinfo/raytrace From jd-upton@texas.net Sat Sep 7 07:58:27 2002 Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g87DwQU02107 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 07:58:26 -0600 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet18-024.austin.texas.net [209.99.96.24]) by mw2.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g87DrX029465; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:53:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020907083227.00babb10@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:52:20 -0500 To: Tom Wicker , raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null In-Reply-To: <20020906163312.38560.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Tom, At 09:33 AM 9/6/2002 -0700, Tom Wicker wrote: >I have noticed something else I don't understand. When >you right click the surface data spreadsheet and scale >to convert from mm to inch or vice versa, the P-V OPD >in the wavefront graphics window scales by the same >factor. For example, if you convert from mm to inch Did you remember to go into the General Operating Conditions dialog and change the Units? What OSLO is doing is using the new values to calculate the OPD but continuing to use the old units for the wavelength of light. You are probably seeing the results for a 559" mirror. This is why I mentioned before: At 07:22 AM 9/6/2002 -0500, John D. Upton wrote: >dialog box. (Remember to set the correct units in General Operating >Conditions box before running a wavefront analysis.) Of course, there are >other ways to convert I have seen no other strange results in using the Scale function as long I keep the units set correctly when doing wavefront analysis. At 09:33 AM 9/6/2002 -0700, Tom Wicker wrote: >the text window the P-V OPD and RMS OPD are slightly >different (larger) than what is shown in the graphics window. I have wondered about this myself for a long time. I don't know why this happens. The differences are usually small enough that it hasn't prompted me to dig into the cause of the difference. Any list members out there know (or suspect) a reason why this might be? Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Sat Sep 7 07:59:42 2002 Received: from mw2.texas.net (mw2.texas.net [206.127.30.12]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g87DxfU02129 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 07:59:41 -0600 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet18-024.austin.texas.net [209.99.96.24]) by mw2.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g87Dsm029669; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:54:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020907084215.00bb8ce0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:53:35 -0500 To: Hermit From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Retraction Of OSLO 6.X Missing Function Complaint Cc: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com In-Reply-To: <3D791C4E.18722BE3@cisnet.com> References: <4.3.1.0.20020906070504.02fb26c8@popmail.austin.ibm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Ken, At 05:21 PM 9/6/2002 -0400, Hermit wrote: >This goes for a lot of software. They take out the documentation, but >not the function. This case was a little stranger than that. In OSLO, all other lens commands I have seen have a command line equivalent you can use. You can either find the command in the menus or type it out on the command line. The Scale command worked both ways in version 5.4. In version 6.1, it is no longer in the menus and if you type it out on the command line, it returns a command-not-found type of error. That is what puzzled me. I could understand leaving it off the menus but not removing the command and re-implementing it some other way without documenting the change. Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:47 2002 Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g87FNkU02251 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:23:46 -0600 Received: from sdn-ap-002ilchicp0071.dialsprint.net ([63.184.136.71] helo=peck2.ix.netcom.com) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17nhMM-0005gM-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 11:18:55 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020907094847.00a92600@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 10:18:19 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20020907083227.00babb10@mail.texas.net> References: <20020906163312.38560.qmail@web10108.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 08:52 07-09-02 -0500, John D. Upton wrote: >At 09:33 AM 9/6/2002 -0700, Tom Wicker wrote: >>the text window the P-V OPD and RMS OPD are slightly >>different (larger) than what is shown in the graphics window. > > I have wondered about this myself for a long time. I don't know why > this happens. The differences are usually small enough that it hasn't > prompted me to dig into the cause of the difference. Any list I don't *know*, but I guess what's happening is different analysis routines are sampling the pupil at different numbers of points. Try this exercise with any setup you happen to be working on (a single mirror or simple lens will work): In the "Surface Data" spreadsheet click on the button labelled "Setup". Towards the bottom of the table that comes up there's a line that starts "Aperture divisions across pupil.." That controls how densely the pupil is sampled, and the default value is fairly low. Try setting that to a larger value, like 90. For some reason when you click on the box a list of choices will pop up with a selection of non-integer values. You can ignore the list, I think and just type in a number. Now, in the "Wavefront Analysis" graphic right click in the interior of the window. That will bring up a pop-up menu. Select the item "Re-calculate using new parameters..." That will bring up another dialog box, with the second line reading "Number of lines". Set that value to the same number you set in the surface data setup box. When I do that I get the same numbers in the text based wavefront analysis as on the graphic. This is all for ver. 6.1 by the way. The same parameters were in version 5.4 but they were set in different ways. If you check the help files there are ways to set these from the command line. Probably there's some way to change the startup defaults too, but I haven't looked into it. I have no idea why the default sampling strategies differ for different routines, but the differences in values are usually no more than a few percent. Denser sampling is more accurate of course, but graphics and computations are slower too. Mike Peck It's good to see some traffic on this list again. I think the only raytrace messages I got for 6 months were monthly reminders that I was still subscribed. _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From jsfejes@swva.net Sat Sep 7 13:14:57 2002 Received: from ns3.swva.net (ns3.swva.net [66.37.69.243]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g87JEuU02570 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:14:56 -0600 Received: from swva.net [66.37.76.145] by ns3.swva.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.12) id AF46E1400FE; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:11:02 -0400 Message-ID: <3D7A5058.B2542B10@swva.net> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:15:36 -0400 From: Steve Fejes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-compaq (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] OSLO How To Guides Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, I am an amateur telescope maker. I have created several How To Guides for using the OSLO software. These cover: an introduction, data entry, analysis, and optimization. These are intended as an introduction to new users. I would like your feedback about how to improve these guides so they are more useful. I have them posted on a Yahoo Group called atm_free. They are in the Files section. You will need to join the group to see these guides. I wanted to let your group know about this information because some people may be interested in them. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/atm_free/ You are welcome to use these How To Guides, or post them on your site if you want. I am looking into posting them on the ATM Site. These files are big, about 2 megabytes combined. The individual web pages have many small images on them, and together they add up to a big file. I just thought you might like to make this information available to your group. Steve Fejes From jd-upton@texas.net Sat Sep 7 14:05:01 2002 Received: from mw1.texas.net (mw1.texas.net [206.127.30.11]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g87K51U02668 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 14:05:01 -0600 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet22-040.austin.texas.net [209.99.97.40]) by mw1.texas.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g87K08L06716; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 15:00:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20020907144900.01d0b970@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 14:57:41 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] OSLO How To Guides In-Reply-To: <3D7A5058.B2542B10@swva.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Steve, At 03:15 PM 9/7/2002 -0400, you wrote: > I am an amateur telescope maker. I have created several How To Guides >for using the OSLO software. These cover: an introduction, data entry, >analysis, and optimization. These are intended as an introduction to ... snip ... > I have them posted on a Yahoo Group called atm_free. They are in the ... snip ... > You are welcome to use these How To Guides, or post them on your site >if you want. I am looking into posting them on the ATM Site. These Thanks for letting us know about these. If anyone mirrors these files to a non-Yahoo site with free access, let us know. I would be very interested in seeing them. I have had to give up on Yahoo. Most of the Yahoo Groups are private unless you sign up for a Yahoo ID. After going through about 50 Yahoo IDs, I grew tired of messing with them. Yahoo now wants too much info for my comfort level when signing up and I tend to lose passwords too easily. There seems to no reliable way to reset a password on an old ID, so I don't try anymore. It's a shame because there is probably some good stuff on the Yahoo Groups somewhere. Sincerely, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From shermj@netzero.net Sat Sep 7 15:36:21 2002 Received: from mail7.wlv.netzero.net (mail7.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.57]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g87LaKU02814 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 15:36:20 -0600 Received: (qmail 6927 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2002 21:31:23 -0000 Received: from dsc04.lai-ca-4-84.rasserver.net (HELO b7y2h6) (199.182.39.84) by mail7.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 7 Sep 2002 21:31:23 -0000 Message-ID: <002101c25608$4750cd00$5427b6c7@b7y2h6> From: "John Sherman" To: Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Dall Null Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:47:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >Which level of OSLO-LT are you using? My file was done >with version 6.04. Anyone else have any ideas? Hi John, I had to re-download OSLO-LT the other day because I lost it when my 'puter crashed. I got version 6.1 this time. Playing with it, I noticed a few very minor differences. I've noticed there's a few things I like about Beam 3 more than OSLO-LT. One thing, when working with off-axis stuff Beam 3 is more intuitive to me, and returns results that I can understand right away. Another thing is the graphics window, when you're looking at a diagram of the system. With OSLO-LT you can use the mouse to drag a box for more magnification, but the amount of available magnification is very limited. With Beam 3 the magnification seems unlimited. At least, I know I've zoomed WAY in, and I don't recall hitting a limit. And that's the way vector graphics should work. And Beam 3 always has nice scale bars sitting there. Maybe if I ever have time to really learn how to work OSLO-LT I'll be okay. It's capabilities certainly far exceed Beam 3, and it was $300 cheaper. So a big thank you to the folks at Sinclair/Lambda Research. John ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From tomofreno2000@yahoo.com Sat Sep 7 17:02:18 2002 Received: from web10104.mail.yahoo.com (web10104.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.54]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id g87N2HU02943 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 17:02:17 -0600 Message-ID: <20020907225725.47042.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.228.2.242] by web10104.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:57:25 PDT Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 15:57:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wicker To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Raytrace] wavefront analysis Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Regarding the slight difference in P-V OPD in the text and graphic windows: I tried John Sherman's suggestion and at 100 points the two agreed to the precision displayed. Thanks. I read the optics reference that I downloaded with OSLO to get some insight into why autofocus for minimum spot size gives different P-V OPD results than that for min OPD (for a perfect spherical wave they would be the same). It seems that min spot size samples and calculates the RMS for transverse aberation in the image plane, and min OPD (as the name says) calculates optical path difference from a reference sphere and gives the RMS for a sample from that. So I guess it shouldn't be surprising that they are different in some cases. As I said before, a file I set up for a 25" f6 mirror shows no difference between the two, whereas the 22" f4.5 does. This seems to indicate that aberation and/or astigmatism (both are smaller with the f/6) cause the difference. This makes me wonder which is more relevant to knife edge testing. I would guess transverse aberation, ie., min spot size. Anyone have any input on this? Can anyone recommend a good optics text that goes into this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:59:07 2002 Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g88Ex6U04171 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 08:59:06 -0600 Received: from sdn-ap-001ilchicp0334.dialsprint.net ([63.184.129.80] helo=peck2.ix.netcom.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17o3S0-00057F-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:54:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020908092909.00a8cd10@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 09:53:15 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] wavefront analysis In-Reply-To: <20020907225725.47042.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 15:57 07-09-02 -0700, Tom Wicker wrote: >are smaller with the f/6) cause the difference. This >makes me wonder which is more relevant to knife edge >testing. I would guess transverse aberation, ie., min >spot size. Anyone have any input on this? Can anyone >recommend a good optics text that goes into this? Assuming the optical system you're working on is intended to be "diffraction limited" you want to minimize RMS OPD. That will maximize the Strehl ratio, and at least approximately maximize the total amount of energy in the Airy disk. A good way to demonstrate this is with the old standby of the almost diffraction limited sphere, say a 6" f/8 (with object at infinity). After setting it up just cycle through all the analysis graphics with the focus set to minimize RMS OPD and RMS spot size. What you especially want to compare are the diffraction PSFs - you'll probably want to maximize the window size to see the differences. Also you should compare the diffraction PSFs to the geometric spot diagrams. There's a third focus position that's relevant, which is the one that minimizes the maximum transverse aberration. That's at 1.5 times the focus position that minimizes RMS OPD. For example for a 150mm spherical mirror with rc = -2400mm the RMS OPD minimizing focus is at about .294mm, RMS spot size focus is at .392mm, and the min max TA position is at .441mm. This last one is what you find by trial and error in Texereau's foucault data reduction worksheet. It's also the basis for the "Millies-Lacroix" tolerance criterion. Look at the geometric spot diagram and you should see a circle uniformly filled with points - at either of the other two positions you'll see a tighter core with a spray of points farther out. It helps to turn on the airy disk for this exercise. You can do that by right clicking in the spot diagram window and setting "Show Airy disk" in the change parameters dialog. Be sure to compare the diffraction PSF with the geometric spot diagram and the PSFs at the other focus positions. Chapter 11 of Smith's "Modern Optical Engineering, 3rd edition" gives a pretty good discussion of the differences between geometric and diffraction based optical quality criteria. It's a little bit technical, but less so than anything else in my small library. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From erasme2000@club-internet.fr Wed Sep 18 15:15:02 2002 Received: from relay-2v.club-internet.fr (relay-2v.club-internet.fr [194.158.96.113]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8ILF2U22878 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:15:02 -0600 Received: from c7w8x9 (lns17m-3-28.w.club-internet.fr [212.195.126.28]) by relay-2v.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id E564516FD for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:09:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <010301c25f57$bcb8b410$f5ac2cd5@c7w8x9> Reply-To: "Charles Rydel" From: "Charles Rydel" To: Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:09:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [Raytrace] How to optimize on the schwartschild coefficient ? Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: How can I do that with OSLO 6.x ? Has somebody tryed it ? Charles From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 19 09:12:43 2002 Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JFCgU24365 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:12:43 -0600 Received: from [63.184.128.152] (helo=peck2.ix.netcom.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17s2te-0003tm-00; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:07:15 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020919095840.00aa4950@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:06:50 -0500 To: "Charles Rydel" , From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] How to optimize on the schwartschild coefficient ? In-Reply-To: <010301c25f57$bcb8b410$f5ac2cd5@c7w8x9> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 23:09 18-09-02 +0200, Charles Rydel wrote: >How can I do that with OSLO 6.x ? Has somebody tryed it ? > >Charles Just make it a variable. You do that by opening up the variables worksheet, adding a line for the surface you want to make aspheric, and selecting conic constant (CC) for the variable type. If you're doing something simple like a cassegrain it's probably better to work out the conic constant from a formula, but the default GENII merit function usually produces sensible results. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From jsfejes@swva.net Thu Sep 19 15:25:56 2002 Received: from ns3.swva.net (ns3.swva.net [66.37.69.243]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g8JLPsU24906 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:25:54 -0600 Received: from swva.net [66.37.75.90] by ns3.swva.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AFDABD0140; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:21:30 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8A4128.4C0DECF6@swva.net> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:27:04 -0400 From: Steve Fejes X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-compaq (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] OSLO How To Guides Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, The OSLO How To Guides are now posted at www.atmsite.org So, you don't have to worry about Yahoo's issues. These guides show step by step how to use OSLO and use many screen shots to clearly show each step. These are geared for beginning users who want to learn to enter data, evaluate an optical design, and optimize designs. I have covered an achromatic refractor, apochromatic refractor, and a Maksutov design. These guides should get you started using OSLO. Please let me know if you have comments, questions, or corrections. I would like to improve these guides. I know I have a few typographical errors, which I will correct soon. Thanks, Steve From rflrs@rcn.com Wed Dec 18 13:30:07 2002 Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gBIKU6d23769 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:30:07 -0700 Received: from 209-122-236-99.s2226.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com ([209.122.236.99] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 18Okgj-0007KS-00 for Raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:21:05 -0500 Message-ID: <3E00D911.8070703@rcn.com> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 20:22:41 +0000 From: "Richard F.L.R. Snashall" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RAYTRACE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Sagitta in ZEMAX Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: For symmetric surfaces, a little trick I discovered for ZEMAX users: Add a surface succeeding the given surface, separated from it by the ball radius of your spherometer. Set the semi-diameter equal to the semi-diameter of the spherometer, and choose the surface to be a solve of the type "concentric radius" (or "concentric surface", but all my surfaces are spherical, so I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader). In for that surface, the sagitta at the maximum dimension given is equal to the spherometer reading for that surface, with the following conventions: 1) the ball radius is "positive" 2) it is a second surface... for first surfaces, I insert a pick-up surface in between with the negation of the original surface, and reference that new surface. 3) Sagitta follows ROC in sign. I found it useful as a quick "calculator". An alternative to using the buttons is to set up values in the merit function using "SAGY". Rick S. From klowther@cisnet.com Wed Jan 1 13:28:32 2003 Received: from mail.cisnet.com (mail.cisnet.com [68.22.80.4]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h01KSVG19917 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:28:31 -0700 Received: from cisnet.com (unverified [24.145.151.110]) by mail.cisnet.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.5.186) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:18:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3E134D27.3F3B2450@cisnet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 15:18:47 -0500 From: hermit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.19-16mdksmp i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] [Fwd: Optical R&D Community Suggestion] Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Cleaning out my mailbox and found this Ken -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Optical R&D Community Suggestion Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 05:02:32 -0700 From: optics2001@optics2001.com To: klowther@cisnet.com Hello, I personnaly created a nice and educative Optical Library for optics engineers and scientists of the world. URL: www.optics2001.com If you like it, I would be proud to welcome you at my Optics R&D Communicating Community (a lot of people from all optics areas). - 3000 selected and free optics, photonics, laser, imaging papers ! - Communicate in your field with more than 850 R&D optics members. - Members meetings in many local areas. Best Regards, David Weiller www.optics2001.com - The Optical Library - (c) 2001-2002 From gauvin@ifh.de Wed Mar 5 06:27:56 2003 Received: from znsun1.ifh.de (znsun1.ifh.de [141.34.1.16]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h25DRqG22443 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 06:27:55 -0700 Received: from paris.ifh.de (gauvin@paris.ifh.de [141.34.100.17]) by znsun1.ifh.de (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h25DFB3D026999 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:15:11 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (gauvin@localhost) by paris.ifh.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15209 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:15:11 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: paris.ifh.de: gauvin owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:15:11 +0100 (MET) From: Jasmin Gauvin To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Raytrace] rotation, special aperture ,ellipse, BUG, with OSLO LT ? (fwd) Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:47:33 +0100 (MET) From: Jasmin Gauvin To: dcs@sinopt.com Subject: Problem, BUG ? Hi, i am designing a simple system of our science facility with your nice software and a library working on matametica. I have presently since 2 WEEK! a big problem to only plot a simple ELLIPSE. I WANT to use it in a way looking like the plank telescope if you want. THE PROLEM IS THE FELLOWING: first i put a finite distance object. second i draw a ellipse (don't work too much with a ellipse too). thrid i rotate 90 deg (like tla=90) the ellipse. RESULT: I.it's seem impossible to get a good looking DRAW and it's is absolutly necessary to put a really large aperture number like 500. II.when i compute manually the foci and move the source to it i never have get (up to now !) the second foci ! i feel quite bad because it's the only a test before moving to the real problem. so please if you can send me a answer or BETTER a file with a parabolla or ellipse showing the seccond focci i think it the better understand what going on. regard, jasmin gauvin *==================*========================================* * Jasmin Gauvin * Tel.: +49 033762 7 7255 * * DESY Zeuthen * Fax.: +49 033762 7 7330 * * Platanenallee 6 * Email: jasmin.gauvin@desy.de * * D-15735 Zeuthen * Office: 1L/46 * * Germany * WWW: http://desyntwww.desy.de/pitz/ * *==================*========================================* From bobmay@nethere.com Thu Mar 6 13:52:23 2003 Received: from mail-3.nethere.net (mail-3.nethere.net [66.63.128.72]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h26KqNG25018 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:52:23 -0700 Received: (qmail 29294 invoked from network); 6 Mar 2003 20:40:06 -0000 Received: from ppp-207-167-100-118.sndg-pm4-2.dialup.nethere.net (p120 [207.167.100.118]) by mail-3.nethere.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 2003 20:40:06 -0000 (envelope-sender ) Message-ID: <008b01c2e420$c723e520$7664a7cf@p120> From: "Bob May" To: "raytrace" References: <007501c2e345$c40e1120$e3813f42@p120> Subject: Re: [Raytrace] rotation, special aperture ,ellipse, BUG, with OSLOLT ? (fwd) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 12:41:29 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: The purpose of programs like OsloLT is to design real world optics. Towards this end, sources and so forth can be described as what they are. Are you using a point souce with a particular angle of expansion with this? A ellipse should focus from one focus to the other focus position, irrevelant if there is another mirror in there. If you have all of the examples, I do believe that there is a gregorian telescope design in there. That is a parabolic primary and a concave elliptical secondary. FWIW, the design which takes a parallel beam of light and turns it into another smaller diameter beam is the Mersenne design and that uses two confocal paraboloids. Bob May http://nav.to/bobmay bobmay@nethere.com NEW! http://bobmay.astronomy.net From jd-upton@texas.net Wed Mar 26 14:04:23 2003 Received: from e31.co.us.ibm.com (e31.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.129]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h2QL4NG00520 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:04:23 -0700 Received: from westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.11]) by e31.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h2QKoPWO051372; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 15:50:35 -0500 Received: from austin.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.193.82]) by westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.8/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h2QKoxTs018952; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:50:59 -0700 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.41.248.164]) by austin.ibm.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h2QKowvH074426; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:50:58 -0600 Received: from IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.texas.net (ibm-ct8nizi8xyh.austin.ibm.com [9.41.184.197]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id OAA32024; Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:50:57 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20030326142117.02e134c0@popmail.austin.ibm.com> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:50:48 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Raytrace] User Defined Optimization Set Up Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List, Has anyone tried to set up custom optimization operands in OSLO LT? I cannot seem to divine from the help files how (or if in LT) this is done. Do I need to write CCL routines to add custom OCM words or is there a way to enter the conditions directly? As an example (the one I am working on), how can I put conditions on a spacing in a design. Let's say I want to modify a Dall Null test setup for Ross Null test use. Further, I want the final image plane to be coincident with the source plane. Here is a basic setup. (Dimensions are in millimeters.) *LENS DATA Ross Null 14" F/4.4 SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 90.604489 V 9.0604e-05 AIR AST 100.000000 5.000000 9.707008 AS BK7 C 2 -- 2.9420e+03 V 9.894809 S AIR 3 -3.1115e+03 -2.9420e+03 P 177.501483 S REFL_HATCH * 4 -- P -5.000000 P 9.449479 S BK7 P 5 100.000000 P -88.213944 S 9.261180 S AIR IMS -- -0.048925 0.005229 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 3 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- Now, what I want is to force an optimization condition so that thickness 5 is equal to thickness 0 (though in the opposite direction). In other words, I would like to add the equivalent OCM command word for optimizing both total spherical aberration (OCM20) and th[0]+th[5]. Anyone done something like this before? Best Regards, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From shermj@netzero.net Thu Mar 27 17:45:49 2003 Received: from smtp02.wlv.untd.com (smtp02.wlv.untd.com [209.247.163.58]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h2S0jnG02871 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:45:49 -0700 Received: (qmail 12543 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2003 00:32:24 -0000 Received: from dsc15-lai-ca-4-8.rasserver.net (HELO shermj) (206.217.25.8) by smtp02.wlv.untd.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 2003 00:32:24 -0000 Message-ID: <002d01c2f4c1$91dc6200$0819d9ce@shermj> From: "John Sherman" To: "John D. Upton" Cc: Subject: Re: [Raytrace] User Defined Optimization Set Up Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 16:20:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi John, > Now, what I want is to force an optimization condition so that >thickness 5 is equal to thickness 0 (though in the opposite direction). In >other words, I would like to add the equivalent OCM command word for >optimizing both total spherical aberration (OCM20) and th[0]+th[5]. Of course, you know OSLO better than me, and are the one who got me going on it. In my limited fog, I wonder. Can't you optimize for OCM20, and then set the thickness of 5 by clicking the box there and selecting "Minus Thickness"? Then choosing 0 to do the minus pickup from? Good luck, John From jd-upton@texas.net Fri Mar 28 16:20:29 2003 Received: from e35.co.us.ibm.com (e35.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.133]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h2SNKTG04759 for ; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:20:29 -0700 Received: from westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.11]) by e35.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.8/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h2SN7CgJ103304; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:07:12 -0500 Received: from austin.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.193.82]) by westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.8/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h2SN5exr014168; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:07:12 -0700 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.41.248.164]) by austin.ibm.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h2SG2JvH052878; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:02:19 -0600 Received: from IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.texas.net (ibm-ct8nizi8xyh.austin.ibm.com [9.41.184.197]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id KAA22048; Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:02:18 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20030328093236.030425d0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:02:08 -0600 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] User Defined Optimization Set Up Cc: "John Sherman" In-Reply-To: <002d01c2f4c1$91dc6200$0819d9ce@shermj> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: John, At 04:20 PM 3/27/2003 -0800, you wrote: >it. In my limited fog, I wonder. Can't you optimize for OCM20, and then set >the thickness of 5 by clicking the box there and selecting "Minus >Thickness"? Then choosing 0 to do the minus pickup from? Doing the pickup is handy for seeing how much you are off. If you do it for the example I am working on and then do an auto-focus for minimum OPD, TH[6] (the image plane distance) will show where the beam falls. I would like that distance to be zero. Setting a Minus Pickup is a good way to keep from having to manually add the TH[0]+TH[5]+TH[6] values to see how close the image surface is to the source. Thanks for the suggestion. I did find a way to do it but it was not pretty. I'm sure there is a better (proper) way to set this up. What I did was modify the CCL routines for optimization and recompile. The stock CCL routines explicitly tell you not to modify them! I copied the standard routines off to a safe place and edited the "op_erfs.ccl" and "op_callbaks.ccl" files. I added the following line to the "opcb_abs(void)" function of the "op_callbaks.ccl" file: Ocm[23] = th[0] + th[5]; // th[0]+th[5] I then edited the "op_erfs.ccl" file to add the following line to function "opabs_template(void)": opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM23", 1.0, "TH0+TH5"); /* Thickness */ I next recompiled the CCL. Now, when I use the menu command "Optimize|Generate_Error_Function|Abberration_Operands", I get an additional OCM23 command that forces TH[0]+TH[5] to be zero. It worked well. The prescription below shows the results (also using John's minus pickup idea to show how far off the final minimum OPD focal plan is from the source). *LENS DATA Ross Null 14" F/4.4 SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 89.475380 V 8.9475e-05 AIR AST 100.000000 5.000000 9.494067 AS BK7 C 2 -- 2.9418e+03 V 9.682106 S AIR 3 -3.1115e+03 -2.9418e+03 P 177.496321 S REFL_HATCH * 4 -- P -5.000000 P 9.673515 S BK7 P 5 100.000000 P -89.475380 P 9.485465 S AIR IMS -- -6.6881e-05 0.005161 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 3 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- *WAVEFRONT RS WAVELENGTH 1 PKVAL OPD RMS OPD STREHL RATIO RSY RSX RSZ 0.065334 0.015967 0.989658 -- -- -- After getting the data I needed, I saved the design file and then copied the old CCL routines back to their proper place. One last recompile with the stock CCL restored OSLO to it normal operation. So, I have solved the immediate problem but there must be an easier and safer way to add your own user defined error functions. I guess I still have a lot of reading of the help files to do. I would hope there is some way to do this from the command line rather than modifying the underlying CCL code for OSLO. Has no one else tried something like this before? Best Regards, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From atmer@flash.net Thu Apr 3 02:59:11 2003 Received: from pimout2-ext.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.101]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h339xBG16163 for ; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 02:59:11 -0700 Received: from [67.118.252.79] (ppp-67-118-252-79.dialup.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.118.252.79]) by pimout2-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.3 patch/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h339jhqD122312; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 04:45:44 -0500 X-Sender: atmer@pop.flash.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000a01c2ed06$27b2a140$7548fea9@mackenzio2mm5r> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:49:41 -0800 To: From: Anthony Stillman Cc: Subject: [Raytrace] Schupmann in OSLO LT Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: A short while back Ellen Mackenzie asked about the Schupmann Medial Telescope, its prescription, and entering it into OSLO LT. Recently I've once again been experimenting with OSLO LT. I determined to assist. I started by searching the archive to find the link she referenced. Instead I found a post I had written. Oh yea, I thought while reading it. I guess that means I've got a .len file somewhere. After several searches (check the spelling) "shup04.len" surfaced. It's text is below. This model takes advantage of the non-physical quality of ray tracing. Namely, surfaces interact with the rays only where they are called out. A ray passing through a lens and then reflected by a mirror back toward the lens will not interact with that previously called out lens. It is as if it isn't there. Consequentially, there is no need to tilt the optical axis at the field mirror or mangin. Instead I send the light back on its self and in turn place the mangin where it appears to be in the income light cone. The tilt required in a real schupmann only slightly perturbs the behavior of the instrument and can be ignored. Yea, I couldn't either. To add tilt to the OSLO LT model open the surface data spread sheet (F5). The third surface is the field mirror. Click on the "Special" button and select "Coordinates" in the pull down menu. There set "TLA" to 3 or so degrees and set "Tilt and Bend" to "Yes" Finally, click the green check at the top left corner of the "tilt/decenter" data window. You can now run through the available metrics and see that the effect of the this tilt is negligible. Tilting the mangin proceeds similarly. Tilt the refractive surface (surface four) as as you did the field mirror. For the reflective surface (surface five) use the minus pick up function in the "tilt/decenter" window to tie it to the previous surface. Tilt in the mangin strongly effects the behavior of the instrument and it should be kept to a minimum. With out a fold flat just shy of the focal plane to kick the image out of the way of the field mirror, that minimum is around -0.5 degrees. With the fold flat -0.3 degrees looks doable. Tilting the mangin seems to mess with OLSO LT's autofocus function. With the mangin tilted the best focus moves back a couple tenths of a millimeter. Anthony scientia est potentia. Knowledge is power. // OSLO 5.31 8046 0 0 LEN NEW "Schupmann Medial" -2310.1 8 EBR 76.2 ANG 0.25 DES "OSLO" UNI 1.0 // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 4.3633508207e+17 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 RD 1295.3238 TH 15.875 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD -13513.5112 TH 2272.284 NXT // SRF 3 RFL RD -1618.107 TH -1240.9932 NXT // SRF 4 GLA BK7 RD 339.6742 TH -11.43 NXT // SRF 5 RFL RD 664.0068 PK THM -1 0.0 NXT // SRF 6 AIR PK CV -2 0.0 TH 1245.9462 NXT // SRF 7 AIR NXT // SRF 8 AIR TH 10.4158133927215 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 8 From shermj@netzero.net Fri Apr 4 18:54:02 2003 Received: from smtp03.wlv.untd.com (smtp03.wlv.untd.com [209.247.163.66]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h351s1G19487 for ; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:54:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 22904 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2003 01:40:26 -0000 Received: from dsc01-lai-ca-1-199.rasserver.net (HELO shermj) (204.32.168.199) by smtp03.wlv.untd.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 2003 01:40:26 -0000 Message-ID: <005401c2fb14$5d865e80$c7a820cc@shermj> From: "John Sherman" To: References: Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Schupmann in OSLO LT Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 17:29:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi Anthony, Thanks for sharing. Looking at what you guys are doing helps me learn the program and the optics. > Tilting the mangin seems to mess with OLSO LT's autofocus function. With > the mangin tilted the best focus moves back a couple tenths of a > millimeter. Perhaps this is because the light spends more distance in a tilted lens? I've been messing with John Upton's Ross Null setup. I find that defining different autofocus methods also changes the focus a bit. John From rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us Sat Apr 19 20:37:07 2003 Received: from pop2.greatbasin.net (pop2.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.4]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3K2b6G16907 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 20:37:06 -0600 Received: from nnps.reno.nv.us (nnps.gbis.com [207.228.2.242] (may be forged)) by pop2.greatbasin.net (8.12.2/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h3K2Mric015285 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 19:23:00 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA203D5.6050307@nnps.reno.nv.us> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 19:20:05 -0700 From: Robbin Palmer Reply-To: tomofreno@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040205030700060109060605" Subject: [Raytrace] Ross null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040205030700060109060605 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I set up a Ross null test in OSLO lite for a D = 22.4" (569.96 mm), f = 94" (2387.6 mm) mirror using a D = 92 mm, f = 300 mm BK7 lens, with center thickness 10.4 mm and edge thickness 4 mm. I set it up using the "B" (lens to source distance) and "D" (lens to mirror distance) from the Stoltzman and Ceravolo article in Mar/1993 Applied Optics. After minor corrections for lens thickness and index (using green light instead of the red used in the article), I calculated B - 175.617 mm and interpolating from the table got D = 4308.351 mm. I set up the test in OSLO with these spacings, and chose autofocus, RMS min mono spot size in the thickness field for the lens to image distance to find where the image plane formed relative to the object plane. I plan on using a "slitless" tester as described on the Stellafane website for the test, so need the lens-object and lens-image distances equal. I optimized for total spherical abberation and got a null on the order of 1/20 wave, but the image plane was far behind the object plane. When I iterated the object-lens distance to make get it equal to the image lens distance, then null dropped to 1/7 wave. Am I doing something wrong? The OSLO file is attached. --------------040205030700060109060605 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Ross_Null_300.len" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Ross_Null_300.len" // OSLO 6.1 9180 58816 35746 LEN NEW "Ross Null, 22\"f4.5, 300mm lens" 435.76 5 NAO 0.167462015572 ANG 0.0000572957795 DES "tw" UNI 1.0 SNO1 "This file uses a Melles Griot f=300mm, d=66mm, t=6.5mm lens for the nulling lens" SNO2 "from their website, cost: $38.00. This lens should clear the return light" SNO3 "from the mirror with a 0.5 degree angle off axis." // SRF 0 AIR TH 197.29232 AP 0.00019729232 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 TH 10.4 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD -159.1687909981387 TH 4380.0795594864567 NXT // SRF 3 RFH RD -4780.3000000000002 PK THM -1 0.0 CC -1.0 DT 1 NXT // SRF 4 AIR PK CVM -2 0.0 TH -10.4 NXT // SRF 5 AIR TH -197.2927388578441 CBK 1 WV 0.54607 0.48613 0.65627 WW 1.0 1.0 1.0 END 5 SDAD 100.0 OPDF 1.0e-08 OPOC "opcb_abs" VAR NEW V 1 5 0 TH 0.0 0.0 1.0 0.0033512211294 V 2 2 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0033512211294 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM20" 1.0 "TOTAL_SPH" END --------------040205030700060109060605-- From shermj@netzero.net Mon Apr 21 18:20:24 2003 Received: from smtp03.wlv.untd.com (smtp03.wlv.untd.com [209.247.163.66]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id h3M0KOG20732 for ; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:20:24 -0600 Received: (qmail 2143 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2003 00:06:07 -0000 Received: from dsc15-lai-ca-4-63.rasserver.net (HELO shermj) (206.217.25.63) by smtp03.wlv.untd.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2003 00:06:07 -0000 Message-ID: <000201c30862$ee0c3320$3f19d9ce@shermj> From: "John Sherman" To: Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Ross null Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:03:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > I set up a Ross null test in OSLO lite for a D = 22.4" Robbin, I think it would work better if you had a surface4 made of BK7 for the light to travel through on the return journey back from the mirror. The program doesn't know it's there from the first time around. John From rpalmer@nnps.reno.nv.us Fri Apr 25 21:57:51 2003 Received: from pop0.greatbasin.net (pop0.greatbasin.net [207.228.35.2]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3Q3vpG29042 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:57:51 -0600 Received: from nnps.reno.nv.us (nnps.gbis.com [207.228.2.242] (may be forged)) by pop0.greatbasin.net (8.12.2/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h3Q3hF76030300 for ; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:43:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA9FE9E.8080801@nnps.reno.nv.us> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:35:58 -0700 From: Robbin Palmer Reply-To: tomofreno2000@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Ross Null Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: More confusion over Ross Null test. Using an f/4.2, D= 22.4 mirror, f= 450 mm, D = 145 mm, t = 15.5 mm lens. I used the software program from Mel Bartel's website to find the lens-source and lens-mirror distances. Got source-lens = 255.657mm, lens-mirror = 4145.66mm, which is at least in the same ballpark as the numbers, 250.29mm and 4159.71, that I calculated from the Stoltzman and Ceravolo Mar/93 Vo 32 No.7 Applied Optics article using green light (entered the index for BK7 green light in the above software - 1.518722. So I entered the above numbers from the software into OSLO lite. Here is how I set it up: RAD THK AP RAD Glass Special OBJ 0 255.657 S air AST 0 15.5 S BK7 C 2 -238.719 4145.7 S air 3 -4775.2 -4145.7 P S Refl Hatch CA 4 238.719 P -15.5 S BK7 C IMS 0 2437.4 V The thickness value for the image was calculated by OSLO. I tried it using the source-lens thickness as a variable, as well as the lens-mirror thickness as a variable. Results were no better. With the above I got a P-V OPD of 9.44! Plus the image plane is far away from the source. I need it the same as the object plane for my slitless tester. The software from Mel's site gave a max OPD of 0.0692. I tried iterating the source-lens distance by hand to improve things, to no avail. What am I doing wrong? I calculated lens radius of curvature from r = (n-1)(f + th/n). I used the lens center thickness for th. The catalog gives the principle plane location at 10.2mm from the planar surface. Should I adjust for this? I varied the thickness a few mm with no improvement in results. In fact, it is an enormously robust bad solution. From jd-upton@texas.net Mon Apr 28 14:31:00 2003 Received: from e32.co.us.ibm.com (e32.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.130]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3SKUxG01918 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:30:59 -0600 Received: from westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.11]) by e32.co.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h3SKGRkc288236; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:16:27 -0400 Received: from austin.ibm.com (d03av02.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.193.82]) by westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h3SKGQGU160448; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:16:27 -0600 Received: from popmail.austin.ibm.com (popmail.austin.ibm.com [9.41.248.164]) by austin.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h3SKGQ9j035562; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:26 -0500 Received: from IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH.texas.net (IBM-CT8NIZI8XYH-udp9359239uds.austin.ibm.com [9.41.184.162]) by popmail.austin.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.7-client1.01) with ESMTP id PAA25342; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:25 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20030428135350.03430828@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:07 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Ross Null (Long Post) Cc: tomofreno2000@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <3EA9FE9E.8080801@nnps.reno.nv.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Robin, At 08:35 PM 4/25/2003 -0700, you wrote: >More confusion over Ross Null test. Using an f/4.2, D= 22.4 mirror, f= 450 >mm, D = 145 mm, t = 15.5 mm lens. I used the software program from Mel ... snip ... >the source. I need it the same as the object plane for my slitless >tester. The software from Mel's site gave a max OPD of 0.0692. I tried >iterating the Your input seems to be missing a surface in your setup. Here is a version of your prescription I entered from the data in your two posts. It has been optimized to minimize the total spherical aberration while maintaining an image distance as close as possible to the source distance. For this setup, the best I could do was get them within about 0.6 mm. This is the same problem I wrestled with in OSLO-LT last month. (See the thread on user defined optimization set up.) In order to force the source and image to be (nearly) coincident, you need to define some user optimization commands. At the bottom of this post, I have appended the final OSLO-LT lens file and the two CCL files used for the optimization. If you copy the CCL files to the PRIVATE CCL directory and recompile the Private CCL commands, you can optimize both spherical aberration and source-image distance. After playing with this, remember to rename the two private CCL file to some extension other than CCL and recompile back to normal operation again. (Note that the file names differ slightly between different versions of OSLO-LT. You will have to rename the copies in the Private CCL directory the same as their counterparts in the Public CCL directory.) Not having looked at the other information sources you cited, I cannot say if this is a good solution for your setup. In the notes for the design, you mention the beam clearing the lens at an off axis angle of 0.5 degree. Were you by any chance trying to set up a Dall Null configuration where the return beam doesn't pass through the lens again? The following data pertains to the Ross Null configuration only. *LENS DATA Ross Null, 22.4" f4.2, 450mm len SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 289.581931 V 0.000290 AIR AST -- 15.500000 45.946951 AS BK7 C 2 -238.719031 4.2835e+03 V 47.566304 S AIR 3 -4.7803e+03 -4.2835e+03 P 284.480000 S REFL_HATCH * 4 238.719031 P -15.500000 P 11.566760 S BK7 P 5 -- P -289.581931 S 11.173023 S AIR IMS -- -0.579194 0.023537 S *CONIC AND POLYNOMIAL ASPHERIC DATA SRF CC AD AE AF AG 3 -1.000000 -- -- -- -- The trace results were not as good as you quoted for the software on Mel's site. The OSLO-LT results were as follows: *WAVEFRONT RS WAVELENGTH 1 PKVAL OPD RMS OPD STREHL RATIO RSY RSX RSZ 0.120901 0.023270 0.978992 -- -- -- The Ross Null File: ===== Start of Ross_Null_Palmer.len ================================ // OSLO 6.04 63357 25680 35746 LEN NEW "Ross Null, 22.4\" f4.2, 450mm len" -216.34 6 NAO 0.1567062162182 ANG 0.0000572957795 DES "tw" UNI 1.0 SNO1 "This file uses a Melles Griot f=300mm, d=66mm, t=6.5mm lens for the nulling lens" SNO2 "from their website, cost: $38.00. This lens should clear the return light" SNO3 "from the mirror with a 0.5 degree angle off axis." // SRF 0 AIR TH 289.5819314985729 AP 0.0002895819314 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 TH 15.5 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD -238.7190313248665 TH 4283.4745926101468 NXT // SRF 3 RFH RD -4780.3000000000002 PK THM -1 0.0 CC -1.0 DT 1 NXT // SRF 4 PK GLA -3 PK CVM -2 0.0 PK THM -3 0.0 NXT // SRF 5 AIR PK CV -4 0.0 PY 0.0 NXT // SRF 6 AIR TH -0.5791943000625 WV 0.54607 WW 1.0 END 6 SDAD 100.0 OPDF 1.0e-08 OPOC "opcb_abs" VAR NEW V 1 0 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0045946951357 V 2 2 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0045946951357 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM20" 1.0 "TOTAL_SPH" O 2 "OCM23" 0.0 "TH0+TH5" END ===== End of Ross_Null_Palmer.len ================================== The optimization call-back functions file: ===== Start of op_callbaks.ccl ===================================== #include "..\..\public\ccl\inc\a_global.h" cmd opcb_abs(void) // hlp:

Sample // hlp: command for computation of a // hlp: user-defined error function // hlp: through CCL operands.

// hlp:

This command calculates system paraxial ray data (PY, PU, PYC, PUC, EFL), // hlp: as well as chromatic, 3rd and 5th order aberration coefficients. // hlp: It serves as an error function callback for the opabs_template command.

// hlp:

Note: The optimization condition for CCL operands needs to be set to // hlp: "opcb_abs" for this command to work correctly.

// kwd: sample, operands, aberrations, // cat: optimization /***************************************** WARNING ******************************************** * Don't change this command. It is used as a callback for the opabs_template and may be used * by several error function generators. Changing it may produce unexpected results for these * commands. If you want to use a modified callback, make a copy, rename the copy to something * else (e.g. my_opcb_abs) and modify the copy. **********************************************************************************************/ { int ssb_row_sav; set_preference(outp, off); ssb_row_sav = sbrow; ssbuf_reset(ssb_row_sav, 6); paraxial_trace(); Ocm[1] = ssb(1, 1); // py Ocm[2] = ssb(1, 2); // pu Ocm[3] = ssb(1, 4); // pyc Ocm[4] = ssb(1, 5); // puc chromatic_abers(); Ocm[5] = ssb(2, 1); // pac Ocm[6] = ssb(2, 3); // plc Ocm[7] = ssb(2, 2); // sac Ocm[8] = ssb(2, 4); // slc seidel_abers(); Ocm[9] = ssb(3, 1); // sa3 Ocm[10] = ssb(3, 2); // cma3 Ocm[11] = ssb(3, 3); // ast3 Ocm[12] = ssb(3, 4); // ptz3 Ocm[13] = ssb(3, 5); // dis3 fifth_order_abers(); Ocm[14] = ssb(4, 1); // sa5 Ocm[15] = ssb(4, 2); // cma5 Ocm[16] = ssb(4, 3); // ast5 Ocm[17] = ssb(4, 4); // ptz5 Ocm[18] = ssb(4, 5); // dis5 Ocm[19] = ssb(4, 6); // sa7 Ocm[20] = Ocm[9] + Ocm[14] + Ocm[19]; // total sph paraxial_constants(); Ocm[21] = ssb(5, 1); // focal length (ang. mag.) Ocm[22] = Ocm[1] + Ocm[9]; // PY + SA3 for singlet_erf Ocm[23] = th[0] + th[5]; // th[0]+th[5] ssbuf_reset(-ssb_row_sav, 6); set_preference(output_text, on); } cmd opcb_rays(void) // hlp:

Sample // hlp: command for computation of a // hlp: user-defined error function // hlp: through CCL operands.

// hlp:

This command calculates system paraxial parameters // hlp: (PY, PU, PYC, PUC, EFL), as well as exact ray trace data for on and off-axis rays. The ray parameters // hlp: describing the rays used are obtained from system note 6, as set up by the // hlp: oprays_template command.

// hlp:

Note: The optimization condition for CCL operands needs // hlp: to be set to "opcb_rays" for this command to work correctly.

// kwd: sample, operands // cat: optimization { int ic,ssb_row_sav,chkap; double w2d; char tmpstr[81]; set_preference(outp, off); ssb_row_sav = sbrow; ssbuf_reset(ssb_row_sav, 12); chkap = apck; apck off; /* Parse system note 6 to get static OCM's: OCM1 = "AXIS_FYMAX" On-axis fractional beam radius OCM2 = "OFAX_FOB" Fractional height of off-axis object point OCM3 = "OFAX_FYMIN" Lower FY for off-axis object point OCM4 = "OFAX_FYMAX" Upper FY for off-axis object point OCM5 = "OFAX_FX" FX for off-axis object point skew ray */ get_system_note(6); strtoken(tmpstr,system_note, " "); if (!strcmp(tmpstr, "opcb_rays")) { for (ic = 1; ic < 6; ic++) { strtoken(tmpstr, "", " "); ocm[ic] = atof(tmpstr); } } ssbuf_reset(1,2,1e20); // paraxial data paraxial_trace(); Ocm[6] = ssb(1,1); // py Ocm[7] = ssb(1,2); // pu Ocm[8] = ssb(1,4); // pyc Ocm[9] = ssb(1,5); // puc paraxial_constants(); Ocm[10] = ssb(2,1); // focal length (ang. mag.) ssbuf_reset(1,12,1e20); // on axis set_object_point(0); Ocm[11] = ssb(3,3); // axis focus shift trace_fan(y,all,2,.7*Ocm[1],Ocm[1],0); Ocm[12] = ssb(5,5); // axis FY zone dy Ocm[13] = ssb(5,8); // axis FY zone opd Ocm[14] = ssb(5,9); // axis FY zone dmd Ocm[15] = ssb(5,10); // axis FY zone osc Ocm[16] = ssb(4,5); // axis FY edge dy Ocm[17] = ssb(4,8); // axis FY edge opd Ocm[18] = ssb(4,9); // axis FY edge dmd Ocm[19] = ssb(4,10); // axis FY edge osc // off-axis set_object_point(Ocm[2]); Ocm[20] = ssb(8,1); // off-axis FY 0 yc Ocm[21] = ssb(8,3); // off-axis FY 0 yfs Ocm[22] = ssb(8,4); // off-axis FY 0 xfs trace_fan(y,all,2,Ocm[3],Ocm[4],0); Ocm[23] = ssb(9,5); // off-axis upper FY dy Ocm[24] = ssb(9,8); // off-axis upper FY opd Ocm[25] = ssb(9,9); // off-axis upper FY dmd Ocm[26] = ssb(10,5); // off-axis lower FY dy Ocm[27] = ssb(10,8); // off-axis lower FY opd Ocm[28] = ssb(10,9); // off-axis lower FY dmd trace_fan(x,all,1,Ocm[5],Ocm[5],0); Ocm[29] = ssb(11,5); // off-axis skew dy Ocm[30] = ssb(11,6); // off-axis skew dx // // insert user defs here Ocm[31] = 0.5*(Ocm[23] + Ocm[26]); // tangential coma Ocm[32] = Ocm[20] - Ocm[8]; // distortion // if (opdw) // convert wavelengths to distance units { w2d = wv[1]/(1000.0*uni); Ocm[13] *= w2d; Ocm[14] *= w2d; Ocm[17] *= w2d; Ocm[18] *= w2d; Ocm[24] *= w2d; Ocm[25] *= w2d; Ocm[27] *= w2d; Ocm[28] *= w2d; } if (chkap) apck on; ssbuf_reset(-ssb_row_sav, 12); set_preference(output_text, on); } cmd oprds_spot_size(void) // hlp:

Sample // hlp: command for computation of a // hlp: user-defined error function // hlp: through CCL operands.

// hlp:

This command calculates RMS R // hlp: spot size for wavelength 1 at three // hlp: field points.

// hlp:

Note: The optimization condition Command for CCL operands needs to be set to // hlp: "oprds_spot_size" for CCL operands // hlp: to be computed accurately.

// kwd: sample, operands, RMS spot size, field points // cat: optimization { int ssb_row_sav; set_preference(output_text, off); ssb_row_sav = sbrow(); ssbuf_reset(ssb_row_sav, 100); trace_ref_ray(0.0); spot_diagram(mon, 10.0); Ocm[0] = c4; trace_ref_ray(0.7); ssbuf_reset(-ssb_row_sav, 100); ssb_row_sav = sbrow(); ssbuf_reset(ssb_row_sav, 100); spot_diagram(mon, 10.0); Ocm[1] = c4; trace_ref_ray(1.0); ssbuf_reset(-ssb_row_sav, 100); ssb_row_sav = sbrow(); ssbuf_reset(ssb_row_sav, 100); spot_diagram(mon, 10.0); Ocm[2] = c4; ssbuf_reset(-ssb_row_sav, 100); set_preference(output_text, on); } cmd geniiops(void) // geniierf_lt callback function { int ic, apchk, ssrow; double pu, pyht, imht, w2d, fy; char tmpstr[81]; set_preference(output_text, off); apchk = apck; aperture_check(off); ssrow = sbrow(); ssbuf_reset(ssrow, 0); /* Parse system note 6 to get static OCM's */ get_system_note(6); strtoken(tmpstr,system_note, " "); if (!strcmp(tmpstr, "geniierf_lt")) { strtoken(tmpstr, "", " "); ocm[0] = atof(tmpstr); strtoken(tmpstr, "", " "); ocm[1] = 1.0/(6.0*atof(tmpstr)); for (ic = 0; ic < 7; ic++) { strtoken(tmpstr, "", " "); ocm[44 + ic] = atof(tmpstr); } strtoken(tmpstr, "", " "); ocm[14] = atof(tmpstr); strtoken(tmpstr, "", " "); ocm[29] = atof(tmpstr); } Ocm[2] = 2.1*Ocm[1]; Ocm[3] = 2.8*Ocm[1]; Ocm[4] = 3.0*Ocm[1]; Ocm[5] = 4.0*Ocm[1]; Ocm[6] = Ocm[0]*Ocm[1]/3.0; Ocm[7] = 3.2*Ocm[0]*Ocm[1]; if (opdw) { Ocm[6] *= 1000.0*uni/wv[1]; Ocm[7] *= 1000.0*uni/wv[1]; } Ocm[8] = 0.0001; /* paraxial axial ray slope */ paraxial_trace(); /* save u' */ pu = ssb(1, 2); Ocm[9] = pu + Ocm[0]; /* on-axis reference ray */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_ray_derivs(0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0); /* focus shift */ Ocm[10] = ssb(4, 1); /* paraxial image height */ pyht = ssb(5, 1); /* On axis DY, OPD, DMD */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_fan(y, all, 1, Ocm[44], Ocm[44], 0.0); Ocm[11] = ssb(1, 5); Ocm[12] = ssb(1, 8); Ocm[13] = ssb(1, 9); /* 0.7 field reference ray */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_ray_derivs(0.7, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0); /* distortion */ if (fabs(pyht) < 1.0e-40) Ocm[15] = 0.0; else Ocm[15] = 100.0*(ssb(3, 1)/0.7 - pyht)/pyht; /* field curvature */ Ocm[17] = ssb(4, 1); Ocm[18] = ssb(4, 4); fy = ssb(2, 3); /* coma */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_fan(y, std, 3, fy - 1.0e-4, fy + 1.0e-4, 0.0); Ocm[19] = 0.3333333e+08*rn[ims - 1][1]*pu*(ssb(3, 5) - 2.0*ssb(2, 5) + ssb(1, 5)); if (opdw) { w2d = 1000.0*uni/wv[1]; Ocm[19] *= w2d; } /* meridional rays */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_fan(y, all, 2, Ocm[45], Ocm[46], 0.0); Ocm[20] = ssb(1, 5); Ocm[21] = ssb(1, 8); Ocm[22] = ssb(1, 9); Ocm[23] = ssb(2, 5); Ocm[24] = ssb(2, 8); Ocm[25] = ssb(2, 9); /* sagittal ray */ trace_fan(x, all, 1, Ocm[47], Ocm[47], 0.0); Ocm[26] = ssb(3, 6); Ocm[27] = ssb(3, 5); Ocm[28] = ssb(3, 8); /* 1.0 field reference ray */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_ray_derivs(1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0); /* distortion */ if (fabs(pyht) < 1.0e-40) Ocm[30] = 0.0; else Ocm[30] = 100.0*(ssb(3, 1) - pyht)/pyht; /* field curvature */ Ocm[32] = ssb(4, 1); Ocm[33] = ssb(4, 4); fy = ssb(2, 3); /* coma */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_fan(y, std, 3, fy - 1.0e-4, fy + 1.0e-4, 0.0); Ocm[34] = 0.3333333e+08*rn[ims - 1][1]*pu*(ssb(3, 5) - 2.0*ssb(2, 5) + ssb(1, 5)); if (opdw) Ocm[34] *= w2d; /* meridional rays */ ssbuf_reset(1, 0); trace_fan(y, all, 2, Ocm[48], Ocm[49], 0.0); Ocm[35] = ssb(1, 5); Ocm[36] = ssb(1, 8); Ocm[37] = ssb(1, 9); Ocm[38] = ssb(2, 5); Ocm[39] = ssb(2, 8); Ocm[40] = ssb(2, 9); /* sagittal ray */ trace_fan(x, all, 1, Ocm[50], Ocm[50], 0.0); Ocm[41] = ssb(3, 6); Ocm[42] = ssb(3, 5); Ocm[43] = ssb(3, 8); ssbuf_reset(-ssrow, 0); set_preference(output_text, on); if (apchk) aperture_check(on); } cmd oprds(void) // hlp:

Provided for backward compatibility only. Use "opcb_abs" instead.

// kwd: operands, callbacks // cat: optimization { int ssb_row_sav; set_preference(outp, off); ssb_row_sav = sbrow; ssbuf_reset(ssb_row_sav, 6); paraxial_trace(); Ocm[1] = ssb(1, 1); // py Ocm[2] = ssb(1, 2); // pu Ocm[3] = ssb(1, 4); // pyc Ocm[4] = ssb(1, 5); // puc chromatic_abers(); Ocm[6] = ssb(2, 1); // pac Ocm[7] = ssb(2, 3); // plc Ocm[8] = ssb(2, 2); // sac Ocm[9] = ssb(2, 4); // slc seidel_abers(); Ocm[11] = ssb(3, 1); // sa3 Ocm[12] = ssb(3, 2); // cma3 Ocm[13] = ssb(3, 3); // ast3 Ocm[14] = ssb(3, 4); // ptz3 Ocm[15] = ssb(3, 5); // dis3 fifth_order_abers(); Ocm[21] = ssb(4, 1); // sa5 Ocm[22] = ssb(4, 2); // cma5 Ocm[23] = ssb(4, 3); // ast5 Ocm[24] = ssb(4, 4); // ptz5 Ocm[25] = ssb(4, 5); // dis5 Ocm[31] = ssb(4, 6); // sa7 Ocm[41] = Ocm[11] + Ocm[21] + Ocm[31]; // total sph paraxial_constants(); Ocm[0] = ssb(5, 1); // focal length (ang. mag.) ssbuf_reset(-ssb_row_sav, 6); set_preference(output_text, on); } ===== End of op_callbaks.ccl ======================================= The optimization OCM definition template file: ===== Start of op_erfs.ccl ========================================= #include "..\..\public\ccl\inc\a_global.h" cmd opabs_template(void) // hlp:

Generates an error function containing all the 1st, 3rd, and 5th-order aberrations. The resulting // hlp: error function can then be edited using the operands spreadsheet editor to remove unwanted terms. // hlp: Alternately, this command can be copied, renamed and edited to make a custom operands generator for // hlp: a specific type of system. Note that this command just sets up the error function. The error function // hlp: is evaluated by the opcb_abs command in op_callbacks.ccl. If you want to add additional terms to your // hlp: error function, you must also create a new callback command that will evaluate them.

// hlp:

NOTE: This is a template to help you set up an error function, not a working error function. It // hlp: will not work unless you delete the operands that don't apply to your system!

// kwd: error function, OCM, optimization, error function generator // cat: optimization { int opnbr; set_preference(output_text, off); opt_oprdccl("opcb_abs"); operands(new); opnbr = 0; opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM1 ", 0.0, "PY"); /* Axial ray height */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM2 ", 0.0, "PU"); /* Axial ray slope */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM3 ", 0.0, "PYC"); /* Chief ray height */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM4 ", 0.0, "PUC"); /* Chief ray slope */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM5 ", 0.0, "PAC"); /* Primary axial color */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM6 ", 0.0, "PLC"); /* Primary lateral color */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM7 ", 0.0, "SAC"); /* Secondary axial color */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM8 ", 0.0, "SLC"); /* Secondary lateral color */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM9 ", 0.0, "SA3"); /* 3rd-order spherical */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM10", 0.0, "CMA3"); /* 3rd-order coma*/ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM11", 0.0, "AST3"); /* 3rd-order astigmatism*/ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM12", 0.0, "PTZ3"); /* 3rd-order Petzval blur */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM13", 0.0, "DIS3"); /* 3rd-order distortion*/ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM14", 0.0, "SA5"); /* 5th-order spherical aberration*/ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM15", 0.0, "CMA5"); /* 5th-order linear coma */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM16", 0.0, "AST5"); /* 5th-order astigmatism */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM17", 0.0, "PTZ5"); /* 5th-order Petzval blur */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM18", 0.0, "DIS5"); /* 5th-order distortion */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM19", 0.0, "SA7"); /* 7th-order spherical aberration */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM20", 1.0, "TOTAL_SPH"); /* Total (3rd+5th+7th) spherical*/ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM21", 0.0, "EFL"); /* Effective focal length */ opnbr++;o(opnbr, ins, "OCM23", 1.0, "TH0+TH5"); /* Thickness */ end(); set_preference(output_text, on); } ===== End of op_erfs.ccl =========================================== Best Regards, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop Page" "Ronchi For Windows Software Page" From jd-upton@texas.net Mon Apr 28 18:22:36 2003 Received: from mail1.aus1.texas.net (mail1.aus1.texas.net [206.127.30.21]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h3T0MaG02244 for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:22:36 -0600 Received: from JDUHOME.texas.net (tcnet21-019.austin.texas.net [209.99.96.208]) by mail1.aus1.texas.net (8.11.6p2/8.11.6p2) with ESMTP id h3T086T28377; Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:08:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030428185500.02493ec0@mail.texas.net> X-Sender: jd-upton@mail.texas.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:03:01 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: "John D. Upton" Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Ross Null (Long Post) In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.0.20030428135350.03430828@mail.texas.net> References: <3EA9FE9E.8080801@nnps.reno.nv.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List, Richard F.L.R. Snashall pointed out an error in my earlier post. I had entered an incorrect pickup for surface 4. The corrected prescription and file are listed below. Sorry for the confusion and thanks to Richard for finding the error. I hope this one agrees with what others are seeing. *LENS DATA Ross Null, 22.4" f4.2, 450mm len SRF RADIUS THICKNESS APERTURE RADIUS GLASS SPE NOTE OBJ -- 255.624389 V 0.000256 AIR AST -- 15.500000 36.016634 AS BK7 C 2 -238.719031 4.1509e+03 V 37.454628 S AIR 3 -4.7803e+03 -4.1509e+03 P 284.480000 S REFL_HATCH * 4 -238.719031 P -15.500000 P 37.455679 S BK7 P 5 -- P -255.624389 S 36.017664 S AIR IMS -- -0.026892 0.004044 S *WAVEFRONT RS WAVELENGTH 1 PKVAL OPD RMS OPD STREHL RATIO RSY RSX RSZ 0.132317 0.022837 0.979688 -- -- -- ===== Start of Corrected lens file ===== // OSLO 6.1 34011 37985 17709 LEN NEW "Ross Null, 22.4\" f4.2, 450mm len" 125.88 6 NAO 0.1395186546719 ANG 0.0000572957795 DES "tw" UNI 1.0 SNO1 "This file uses a Melles Griot f=300mm, d=66mm, t=6.5mm lens for the nulling lens" SNO2 "from their website, cost: $38.00. This lens should clear the return light" SNO3 "from the mirror with a 0.5 degree angle off axis." // SRF 0 AIR TH 255.624388857412 AP 0.0002556243888 NXT // SRF 1 GLA BK7 TH 15.5 NXT // SRF 2 AIR RD -238.7190313248665 TH 4150.9170148100857 NXT // SRF 3 RFH RD -4780.3000000000002 PK THM -1 0.0 CC -1.0 DT 1 NXT // SRF 4 PK GLA -3 PK CV -2 0.0 PK THM -3 0.0 NXT // SRF 5 AIR PK CV -4 0.0 PY 0.0 NXT // SRF 6 AIR TH -0.0268916659216 WV 0.54607 WW 1.0 END 6 DLRS 3 SDAD 100.0 OPDF 1.0e-08 OPOC "opcb_abs" VAR NEW V 1 0 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0036016633578 V 2 2 0 TH 0.1 10000.0 1.0 0.0036016633578 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM20" 1.0 "TOTAL_SPH" O 2 "OCM23" 1.0 "TH0+TH5" END ====== End of Corrected lens file ====== Best Regards, John D. Upton Georgetown, TX "The ATM's Workshop" "Ronchi For Windows Home Page" From Henry.Feinman@cogeco.ca Sun May 4 18:00:46 2003 Received: from fep2.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4500jG14577 for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 18:00:45 -0600 Received: from cogeco.ca (d141-232-221.home.cgocable.net [24.141.232.221]) by fep2.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DF867B for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 19:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3EB5A63A.2020102@cogeco.ca> Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 19:46:02 -0400 From: Henry Feinman Organization: HJF Information Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Raytrace] Stevich Paul in OSLO LT Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hello Ray Tracers, I have been playing with OSLO LT for some time now, attempting to design a Stevick Paul that could be mounted alt-az. This means shortening the ratio for secondary primary FL from .41 to .33 or thereabouts so that the Primary and Tertiary are at approximately the same plane, and so attach the cells of both to the same simple box / framework. I have come up with a design that appears quite good - going by wavefront analysis, peak valley / RMS OPD, spot diagram, MTF, Strehl ratio, but there appears one major problem: The distortion analysis shows a huge percentage compared to other designs -350 Distortion % at about 2 mm distant from axis. I don't quite understand the purpose or meaning of this, and I was wondering if, given the positive factors of the other measures, this was something to worry about. BTW I must give Steve Fejes a big thanks for his OSLO tutorial - I would never have been able to grasp the technology without this work. Regards, Henry Feinman // OSLO 6.1 10181 16418 15137 LEN NEW "Stevick Paul 14 in f 8.54" 2973.6 6 EBR 174.0 ANG 0.5 DES "Henry Fein" UNI 1.0 SNO6 "geniierf_lt 0.05 25.0 1.00 -0.90 0.90 0.80 -0.80 0.80 0.70 1.0 1.0" // SRF 0 AIR TH 1.0e+20 AP 8.7268677908e+17 NXT // SRF 1 RFL RD -5950.0 TH -1933.75 AP CHK 175.0 CC -1.0722978738888 DT 1 TLA -3.95 BEN ELMTTL "" "" "02 Mar 2003" 0 ELMMED 320.0 1.5 0.63 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 ELMSF1 1 0.5 1.5 0.63 5 1 ELMSF1 2 0.5 1.5 0.63 5 1 NXT // SRF 2 RFL RD -2082.0 TH 2082.5 DT 1 TLA 7.6323625213874 BEN ELMTTL "" "" "02 Mar 2003" 0 ELMMED 140.907 1.5 0.63 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 ELMSF1 1 0.5 1.5 0.63 5 1 ELMSF1 2 0.5 1.5 0.63 5 1 NXT // SRF 3 RFL RD -2082.0 TH -990.0 DT 1 TLA 3.7033733489214 BEN NXT // SRF 4 RFL TH 30.0 AP CHK 0.0 DT 1 DCX 3.2 DCY 3.2 TLB 45.0 BEN NXT // SRF 5 AIR AP CHK 0.0 NXT // SRF 6 AIR TH 20.4566882139282 AP CHK 0.0 DT 1 TLA 14.2069936520005 CBK 1 WV 0.58756 0.48613 0.65627 WW 3.0 2.0 1.0 END 6 DLNF 10 DLNR 0 5 DLNR 1 5 DLMN 1 -1.0 DLMX 1 1.0 DLNR 2 5 DLNR 3 5 DLFP 3 -0.1 DLMN 3 -1.0 DLMX 3 1.0 DLNR 4 5 DLFP 4 -0.7 DLMN 4 -1.0 DLMX 4 1.0 DLNR 5 5 DLXF 5 0.7 DLMN 5 -1.0 DLMX 5 1.0 DLNR 6 5 DLXF 6 1.0 DLMN 6 -1.0 DLMX 6 1.0 DLNR 7 5 DLXF 7 -0.7 DLMN 7 -1.0 DLMX 7 1.0 DLNR 8 5 DLXF 8 -0.1 DLMN 8 -1.0 DLMX 8 1.0 DLNR 9 5 DLFP 9 0.7 DLXF 9 0.7 DLMN 9 -1.0 DLMX 9 1.0 DLAS On SDAD 32.0 SDSA On OPDF 0.233517296312 OMNG 0.7 OPOC "geniiops" VAR NEW V 1 1 0 TH -2100.0 -1900.0 1.0 0.0001 V 2 2 0 TH 1900.0 2250.0 1.0 0.0001 END OPE NEW O 1 "OCM1" 0.0 "_Dy tol" O 2 "OCM2" 0.0 "_2.1 Dy" O 3 "OCM3" 0.0 "_2.8 Dy" O 4 "OCM4" 0.0 "_3 Dy" O 5 "OCM5" 0.0 "_4 Dy" O 6 "OCM6" 0.0 "_up Dy/3" O 7 "OCM7" 0.0 "_3.2 up Dy" O 8 "OCM8" 0.0 "_Fnb tol" O 9 "OCM9/OCM8" 1.0 "Fnb diff" O 10 "OCM10/OCM4" 1.0 "Focus diff" O 11 "OCM11/OCM1" 1.0 "Axial DY" O 12 "OCM12/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial OPD" O 13 "OCM13/OCM6" 1.0 "Axial DMD" O 14 "OCM14" 0.0 "_0.7 Dstol" O 15 "OCM15" 0.0 "_0.7 Dist" O 16 "OCM15/OCM14" 1.0 "0.7 Dist" O 17 "OCM17/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 YFS" O 18 "OCM18/OCM2" 1.0 "0.7 XFS" O 19 "OCM19/OCM7" 1.0 "0.7 Coma" O 20 "OCM20/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY U" O 21 "OCM21/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD U" O 22 "OCM22/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD U" O 23 "OCM23/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 DY L" O 24 "OCM24/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 OPD L" O 25 "OCM25/OCM6" 1.0 "0.7 DMD L" O 26 "OCM26/OCM3" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DX" O 27 "OCM27/OCM1" 1.0 "0.7 Sag DY" O 28 "OCM28/OCM6" 1.0 ".7 Sag OPD" O 29 "OCM29" 0.0 "_1.0 Dstol" O 30 "OCM30" 0.0 "_1.0 Dist" O 31 "OCM30/OCM29" 1.0 "1.0 Dist" O 32 "OCM32/OCM4" 1.0 "1.0 YFS" O 33 "OCM33/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 XFS" O 34 "OCM34/OCM7" 1.0 "1.0 Coma" O 35 "OCM35/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY U" O 36 "OCM36/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD U" O 37 "OCM37/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD U" O 38 "OCM38/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 DY L" O 39 "OCM39/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 OPD L" O 40 "OCM40/OCM6" 1.0 "1.0 DMD L" O 41 "OCM41/OCM5" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DX" O 42 "OCM42/OCM1" 1.0 "1.0 Sag DY" O 43 "OCM43/OCM6" 1.0 "1 Sag OPD" O 44 "OCM44" 0.0 "_f1_fymax" O 45 "OCM45" 0.0 "_f2_fymin" O 46 "OCM46" 0.0 "_f2_fymax" O 47 "OCM47" 0.0 "_f2_fx" O 48 "OCM48" 0.0 "_f3_fymin" O 49 "OCM49" 0.0 "_f3_fymax" O 50 "OCM50" 0.0 "_f3_fx" END From mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Mon May 5 09:02:09 2003 Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h45F29G15813 for ; Mon, 5 May 2003 09:02:09 -0600 Received: from dpc6682208001.direcpc.com ([66.82.208.1] helo=peck2.ix.netcom.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ChFS-0002RN-00 for raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com; Mon, 05 May 2003 10:47:24 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030505092055.00ab7740@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: mpeck1@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:46:07 -0500 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com From: Michael Peck Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Stevich Paul in OSLO LT In-Reply-To: <3EB5A63A.2020102@cogeco.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: At 19:46 04-05-03 -0400, Henry Feinman wrote: >I have come up with a design that appears quite good - going by wavefront >analysis, peak valley / RMS OPD, spot diagram, MTF, Strehl ratio, but >there appears one major problem: The distortion analysis shows a huge >percentage compared to other designs -350 Distortion % at about 2 mm >distant from axis. I think that distortion graph is probably wrong. Distortion shouldn't scale that way, although I suppose strange things can happen in a system with tilts. If you look at the estimated Seidel distortion coefficient it's fairly small, which I believe it should be. An interesting feature of the "Stevick-Paul" that isn't at all obvious when you set it up in an optical design program is that it isn't really a tilted component system at all. What Stevick did was take the basic Paul geometry and *rotate* the two spherical mirrors around their respective centers of curvature far enough to get them out of the way of the light cone. What you end up doing is looking at off-axis light from the primary. The reason that works is because the Paul system is an all-reflective Schmidt - its only 3rd order aberration is Petzval field curvature. I don't know for sure but I'd guess that distortion might be asymmetric around the axis at the focal plane, but it should be very small. One thing that bothers me about your design is that if you straighten out the mirrors the primary should be exactly paraboloidal. I don't understand why you're getting a slightly hyperboloidal primary in your design. Maybe someone who understands how to set up tilts in OSLO can comment on that - I've never bothered trying to figure out in any detail how to do TCT's. Mike Peck _________________ Michael Peck email mpeck1@ix.netcom.com Wildlife photography page http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/index.html Amateur telescope making http://home.netcom.com/~mpeck1/astro/astro.html From Henry.Feinman@cogeco.ca Sat May 10 10:34:05 2003 Received: from fep1.cogeco.net (smtp.cogeco.net [216.221.81.25]) by blackhole.idcomm.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id h4AGY4G25750 for ; Sat, 10 May 2003 10:34:04 -0600 Received: from cogeco.ca (d141-232-221.home.cgocable.net [24.141.232.221]) by fep1.cogeco.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D96B81 for ; Sat, 10 May 2003 12:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3EBD2681.4030807@cogeco.ca> Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:19:13 -0400 From: Henry Feinman Organization: HJF Information Solutions User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011128 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com Subject: Re: [Raytrace] Stevich Paul in OSLO LT References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030505092055.00ab7740@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com Errors-To: raytrace-admin@blackhole.idcomm.com X-BeenThere: raytrace@blackhole.idcomm.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Learn Ray Tracing for the ATM List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Thanks Mike for the reassuring note. The slightly hyperboloidal primary came about as a result of me playing with the optimization routines in search of improvements on the the basic design. This curvature, according to Oslo, provided very slightly improved Strehl ratio, and better Airy disk containment through focus, though the Wavefront analysis and MTF curve at .7 field were not as good. As the 'ideal' curvature according to the tests is so very slightly hyperboloid, and the improvements small and isolated to one test over another - my target conic when grinding the mirror will still be parboloid. Thanks again, Henry Feinman Michael Peck wrote: > At 19:46 04-05-03 -0400, Henry Feinman wrote: > >> I have come up with a design that appears quite good - going by >> wavefront analysis, peak valley / RMS OPD, spot diagram, MTF, Strehl >> ratio, but there appears one major problem: The distortion analysis >> shows a huge percentage compared to other designs -350 Distortion % >> at about 2 mm distant from axis. > > > I think that distortion graph is probably wrong. Distortion shouldn't > scale that way, although I suppose strange things can happen in a > system with tilts. If you look at the estimated Seidel distortion > coefficient it's fairly small, which I believe it should be. > > An interesting feature of the "Stevick-Paul" that isn't at all obvious > when you set it up in an optical design program is that it isn't > really a tilted component system at all. What Stevick did was take the > basic Paul geometry and *rotate* the two spherical mirrors around > their respective centers of curvature far enough to get them out of > the way of the light cone. What you end up doing is looking at > off-axis light from the primary. The reason that works is because the > Paul system is an all-reflective Schmidt - its only 3rd order > aberration is Petzval field curvature. I don't know for sur